who do you want to meet in heaven?

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Musical_Lottie
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18 Jun 2006, 6:14 pm

emp wrote:

MMM wrote:

Barracuda,
I'm really glad you said that. Wouldn't that be awesome if in the end even Satan accepted God's love and grace!
MMM

Are you talking about the christian god? If so, the christian god does not have any love or grace. According to the writings in the christian bible, their god is a murderous psychopath.

On the other hand, if you were talking about your own personal belief about a god (not the christian god), then my comment does not apply. Although I am pretty sure that you were talking about the christian god because you do not seem to be the sort of person who has sufficient fortitude to form her own independent beliefs about a god and without being affiliated with a religious cult/organisation.

If you reject the christian bible, then you CAN believe that your god is loving and graceful. However if you simultaneously revere the christian bible and think that god is loving, then you are contradicting yourself.

I haven't read the rest of the posts (don't really have time) but here goes with my opinion/belief -

It depends if you have a version of the Bible, or a direct translation. And whether a translation hasn't been doctored (such as the original KJ - they added onto John 1:1 something along the lines of 'and the three were all one God.' And other versions have an inaccuracy for that verse - the original Greek actually says "the Word was a god" NOT "and the Word was God." But that's kind of drifting ...)

And how you interpret things. Whether you study them and see the justice behind events. And if you recognise that ultimately all of the advice contained in the Bible is for our benefit.

I'm not going to heaven. The Bible clearly states that only 144 000 (Revelation 14:1) Anointed Ones will go to heaven. I'm not one of those. But I don't believe I'm going to 'hell' either - I truly believe that this concept of hell is a misinterpretation of symbolism. (Says me who doesn't understand symbolism til it's explained ... ) I just cannot comprehend that a loving being like Jehovah would torture people for what? 80 or 90 years of being imperfect - for eternity. I do believe that some people have sinned so badly and not repented that they go to Gehenna, never to be resurrected and to be destroyed in the 'second death' (i.e the end of all death) but everyone else not amongst the 144 000 go to Sheol (the common grave of mankind) at death, where they are conscious of nothing and basically just don't exist any more, to be resurrected at the appropriate time. The idea of a 'hell' imposed by Jehovah is incomprehensible to me - Jehovah's righteous standards just wouldn't allow something like that.

*steps off soapbox*

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MMM
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18 Jun 2006, 6:44 pm

subatai_baadur wrote:

Damnit, the arguement started without me. I'll join in anyway.

Welcome, I look forward to debating with you.

It's quoting time!
"Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth the heads of the little ones upon the stones"
-Bible

Way to prove my point! One sentence wonders. Hum, prose, poetry, writing as an expression of your feelings to God. Would God really want to hear how we really feel or do you think He wants to hear the happy bull****. Wow a God who can handle our true thoughts and feelings & still can & does love us anyway. What a concept.

"Religion easily—has the best bull**** story of all time. Think about it. Religion has convinced people that there's an invisible man...living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn't want you to do.

OK, I think you are confusing God with Santa Claus, but anyway go ahead......

And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and burn, and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you and he needs money."

Now I think you are confusing God with Robert Tilton. Once again, free-will? Could it really exist, could we get to choose heaven or hell? Oh no, that would mean the choice is ours & there is now way I'm willing to take responsiblitiy for a choice that big - I better blame it on God.

"One's religion is whatever he is most interested in"
-J.M Barrie

I agree that one's god is where they spend the most time, money & thought/presence. But just because someone chooses xbox as their god, that does not mean there is not a God.

And now for some more original sentiment. Religion as a whole is false. It exists everywhere as a basic means to justify your sh***y existance. There are no naturally atheist cultures on the face of the earth, nor will there ever be. This is because it is very hard to accept that your miserable life is petty, worthless, and will be forgotten in a few years. So people like to come up with these stories of some life beyond your death. Sometimes it's on the back of some turtle. Sometimes it's based on the words of some carpenter that lived 2 millenia ago. But regardless of what it is based on, it is all either false, or made of thousands upon millions of different variables which makes the chances of you being correct practically zero. What colour are gods eyes? Man or woman? How many arms/legs/heads/belly buttons? How tall is it? Does it have a spouse, and if so, is it homosexual? There are too many questions on which you could be wrong on, and thus get sent packing to the same place that all of the atheists are going. Now for the angry christian god theory. God is always pissed. Son dead, wife dead, garden palace empty. Betrayed constantly by corrupt officials and mistrusted for years by people like me. I'd be pissed too if all of that had happened to me. I don't think that he has much goodness left for those other than the most virtuous. I don't think he was that happy to begin with, seeing as he sends people to hell and kicks angels out constantly. Right now, he is sending half of America to hell. Everyone who has ever gotten a divorce can come with me to the river Styx. So stop trying this whole religion bull****, because it has no chance. Don't waste your time.

Religion is not about heaven. Salvation is about God restoring & redeming the life we have chosen to ruin. God is a God of second chances - that's why you are not God.

subatai_baadur
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18 Jun 2006, 9:20 pm

I could be a god. I could also be the antichrist. If you believe certain people I very well might be.

Veresae
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18 Jun 2006, 11:06 pm

MMM wrote:

Veresae, what makes you think I am only paying attention to specific parts of the bible and ignoring the rampant immoral acts that it says god has gotten away with? What makes you think that I don't know about Noah possibly being incestuously raped by one of his sons? However, God had nothing to do with that, that was a really sick & drunk son. Grossssss! What makes you think I don't know about the angles at Sodom & Gommorah & that the dad offered his daughter to the men instead of the angels? Wait, can we blame that on God??????

I wasn't talking about the immoral acts that people did. I'm sorry, that was phrased rather vaguely. I was talking about God telling people to kill everyone in a city if just one person wasn't a Christian, the rules of rape, etc. I get that you're saying we should actually study the bible before judging its overall meaning. I understand that. But what I'm saying that you're ignoring some parts as well. You can say that god loves everyone, even nonbelievers and Satan, and I'm sure you have moments in the bible that back it up, but you can't deny that there are loads of moments in the bible in which God tells people to do immoral things left and right. I'm not going to compile a big list here, that's been done plenty of times already, but you're ignoring that, because you'd rather pay attention to the "Jesus loves everyone!" part. I'm not trying to criticize you, because again, everyone does that. But you can't keep telling others to not judge the Bible based on "one" sentence (when there's thousands of lines of God doing immoral acts) when you yourself are doing the same, and are just choosing different sentences.

MMM wrote:

Just for the record - God made shrimp & does not hate them.

Heh, I was just making a reference to a recent topic (and a web site on that topic). I wasn't speaking with seriousness, as I don't believe in any god and therefore can't assume he hates shrimp.

MMM
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19 Jun 2006, 10:19 am

Veresae wrote:

I wasn't talking about the immoral acts that people did. I'm sorry, that was phrased rather vaguely. I was talking about God telling people to kill everyone in a city if just one person wasn't a Christian,

Give me the specific example of this.... I'm asking for book, chapter & verses. If you don't know the exact address just tell me the general story and I'll look it up.

Veresae wrote:
the rules of rape,

Honestly, I'm not aware of God ever telling people they should rape someone. If you find that address please let me know, I'd be very interested since I truly am not aware of that ever happening.

Veresae wrote:
etc. I get that you're saying we should actually study the bible before judging its overall meaning. I understand that. But what I'm saying that you're ignoring some parts as well. You can say that god loves everyone, even nonbelievers and Satan, and I'm sure you have moments in the bible that back it up, but you can't deny that there are loads of moments in the bible in which God tells people to do immoral things left and right.

I'm glad you understand what I'm saying. I really have not ignored parts. I always see things I don't want to see or dive into but then I can't help myself. Thankfully I was good in english class and always had the advanced teachers who taught me how to not read superficially but look for the real meaning because with just a little effort, you can see it. I really can not agree with you that there are loads of moments in the bible in which God tells people to do immoral things left and right but I'd be happy to discuss them if you find them and tell me specifically which ones you are talking about.

Veresae wrote:
I'm not going to compile a big list here, that's been done plenty of times already, but you're ignoring that, because you'd rather pay attention to the "Jesus loves everyone!" part.

You know, that is the conclusion I come to everytime I study a book in the bible. There are parts of every book that freak me out because God doesn't always fit into the 1950's image in my head, but in the end, always the same conclusion. I've been studying indepth for 27 years (and yes, I'm much older than 27). But the truth is, it's the Jesus loves everyone part that is the hardest. When I sin, that's the part that hurts me. If He loves me, why do I continue to choose sin? Is His death on a cross not enough for me? I also dislike the Jesus loves everyone part when it comes to people I don't like or enemies. Jesus loves everyone & expects us to do so as well. That is why I suspect many people hate Christianity, it is so hard for Jesus to love everyone & not just MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Veresae wrote:
But you can't keep telling others to not judge the Bible based on "one" sentence (when there's thousands of lines of God doing immoral acts) when you yourself are doing the same, and are just choosing different sentences.

Once more, I can assure you I'm not a one sentence wonder Christian.

Veresae wrote:
Heh, I was just making a reference to a recent topic (and a web site on that topic). I wasn't speaking with seriousness, as I don't believe in any god and therefore can't assume he hates shrimp.

I knew you were just referencing the recent topic, which was very funny. I do hope God will reveal Himself (I don't know how to use an all encompassing term for Him) to you some day & that you will allow yourself to go where ever He takes you.

Scrapheap
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19 Jun 2006, 2:34 pm

MMM wrote:

Religion is not about heaven. Salvation is about God restoring & redeming the life we have chosen to ruin. God is a God of second chances - that's why you are not God.

What makes you think we have CHOSEN to ruin our lives?? This is one of the lies that christian salvation is based upon. Most of the ruin in my life was caused by a parent who belonged in an Insane asylum. I did'nt chose my parents or chose to have my brains scrambled by them. Why is god offering a second chance when I never got a first one??
Christian salvation is a variation of "good cop" "bad cop" psycology. God the "bad cop" does exactly what you just said. Blames YOU for the ruin in your life that may or may not be your fault. (not my fault in my case) Jesus, the "good cop" offers you a plea bargian to avoid eternal damnation. If you've ever watched documentaries which show cops bulling false confessions out of innocent people, this is how they do it. It's known as a false dichotomy or an "either or" fallicy.

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riley
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19 Jun 2006, 3:04 pm

Scrapheap wrote:

What makes you think we have CHOSEN to ruin our lives??

Because some are of the opinion that they are morally superior to 'non believers' and are therefore in the position to judge whether or not we need their god to save us from ourselves.. and to also judge that our lives are 'ruined' when they haven't got the faintest idea of how we live our lives.

Not that judging isn't a sin or anything..

emp
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19 Jun 2006, 6:55 pm

MMM wrote:

God Loves You Emp, just the way you are! That is what Christ teaches - but of course you have to read book IN IT"S ENTIRETY first & then come to your own conclusions.

MMM, I HAVE read it in its entirety. I was even sent to a religious school and forced to study the Christian Bible. I am more familiar with it than you are. I have spent considerable time studying this book.

In the Christian Bible, it is repeatedly indicated that God and Jesus HATE people like me. It says they want me to be burnt to death and to go to hell. I can provide quotes and references, if you wish.

By saying that God and Jesus loves me, you are very clearly contradicting the Christian Bible. The bible very clearly states in numerous places that God and Jesus hate me and want me KILLED!

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19 Jun 2006, 7:34 pm

emp wrote:

MMM wrote:

God Loves You Emp, just the way you are! That is what Christ teaches - but of course you have to read book IN IT"S ENTIRETY first & then come to your own conclusions.

I'm seeing an Orwellian parallel here. You know how Big Brother "Loves" all his comrades and sends them to the Ministry of Love to be tortured if that love is'nt returned??

You see emp, MMM is right! As you're burning in hell, it's simply god's (big brother) way of showing his love. You really shoud do the right thing and "love" him back. :wink:

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Barracuda
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19 Jun 2006, 8:44 pm

emp wrote:

MMM wrote:

God Loves You Emp, just the way you are! That is what Christ teaches - but of course you have to read book IN IT"S ENTIRETY first & then come to your own conclusions.

He wants you personally killed? I would like to see the passage for that. 'emp in 24 years and 8 days, I wiil kill you!' In more seriousness, I really would like to see your quotes.

Veresae
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19 Jun 2006, 11:40 pm

MMM wrote:

Give me the specific example of this.... I'm asking for book, chapter & verses. If you don't know the exact address just tell me the general story and I'll look it up.

I think it'd be easier to just direct you to a couple of web sites:

www.evilbible.com

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Have fun, man. Those sites are dedicated to city the many examples of God's immoral actions or commands. You'll find many specific examples there.

MMM wrote:

That is why I suspect many people hate Christianity, it is so hard for Jesus to love everyone & not just MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Actually, that rarely has anything to do with it. Usually it's got something to do with one of the following:the impossibility of the doctrine, the crusades, the fact that the religion ripped of many forms of Paganism and then proceeded to whipe it out, the self-righteousness and intollerance that some (though not all!) Christians have, the fact that the bible could easily have been written by a person (and the way it constantly contradicts itself, therefore being an imperfect work and making it extremely unlikely that a "perfect" being wrote it), the way that there's so much injustice and darkness in today's world (and the idea of a supposedly "benevolent" god just standing by and letting all these people who he "loves" suffer and suffer and suffer), etc. etc. etc. If there was a god who did love everyone that'd be wonderful, but you don't condemn people you love to be tortured for all eternity. I mean, seriously: take someone you love, anyone you really, really LOVE. Say they disappoint you by making a mistake. You're really gonna send them to be tortured and in constant pain and suffering for EVER? You're gonna condemn them to extreme misery for untold amounts of years because they disagreed with you or made a mistake? Someone who you really, truly LOVE? I'm talking about your family members, sexual partners, close friends. The closest in your circle of relationships. If a god truly loved everyone equally, how would he be able to live with himself for sending SO MANY of these people to an eternity of getting needles stuck under their fingernails, their skin ripped off by the fangs of demons, their private parts being skewered by scissors, their eyes being stabbed by flaming matches, so that their eyelashes catch on fire even as their eyes bleed burning blood...imagine that happening to someone you really, truly love, and you go ahead and tell me that you could make them go through that for an infinite amount of time. So forgive me for being so skeptical of this 'divine love for all.'

MMM wrote:

I do hope God will reveal Himself (I don't know how to use an all encompassing term for Him) to you some day & that you will allow yourself to go where ever He takes you.

But, see, THAT is why I dislike hardcore Christians most of all. Saying that to me is the equivalent of me telling you, "I hope some day you realize that the bible is complete and utter bull s**t, and that you will be able to admit that to yourself so that you'll be fit to call yourself an intelligent human being." See how that feels?

But I'm not trying to convert you into an atheist. For all I care, you can go on believing whatever you want. I'll ask questions, try to make you think, and point it out when you say something in the bible that doesn't jive with what I've read--but I'm not trying to convert you. Please show me the same respect. Please don't "pray that I find faith," 'cus all that does is tick me off and make me hate Christianity even more. If more Christians actually understood that then maybe non-Christians wouldn't always be so pissed at them. Yes, there's a lot of anti-Christian rants these days, but if you want to know why then all you have to do is really look at that last sentence I quoted.

emp
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19 Jun 2006, 11:48 pm

Barracuda wrote:

He wants you personally killed? I would like to see the passage for that. 'emp in 24 years and 8 days, I wiil kill you!' In more seriousness, I really would like to see your quotes.

I already said that I meant people who are like me, not me personally.

* God will burn non-Christians (unbelievers) to death. (Revelation 21:8 )

* The "wrath of God" is on all non-believers. (John 3:36)

* Jesus casts those that he dislikes into "everlasting fire". (Matthew 25:31-41)

* Jesus encourages people to hate their families. You can only be his disciple if you hate your family. (Luke 14:26)

* I love my father and mother more than Jesus, therefore I am unworthy of Jesus according to the christian bible. (Matthew 10:34-37)

* Jesus says that Heaven is like a king who slays the people who he does not reign over. (Luke 19:27)

* Jesus condemns the people of entire cities to terrible deaths and torture in hell because they did not agree with him. (Matthew 11:20-24)

* Rich people cannot enter the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:23-24)

* Jesus tries to confuse people so they will not be forgiven and will go to hell. (Mark 4:11-12)

Those are just a few examples that I grabbed quickly. There are many more, and probably I chould have chosen better examples if I had spent more time. I could go on and on for weeks posting quotes that demonstrate that the christian god and jesus are bat-shit insane psychopaths.

For more quotes, go to www.skepticsannotatedbible.com where you can easily obtain lists of hundreds of quotes that demonstrate how barbaric, hateful, and unethical the christian bible is, both OT and NT. Christians should be absolutely ashamed of themselves for revering such an obscene book. It is disgraceful.

To say that the fictional jesus and god characters described in the christian bible are loving is quite simply delusional.

emp
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20 Jun 2006, 12:05 am

On the subject of unconditional love.

MMM wrote:

God Loves You Emp, just the way you are!

Like so many religious people do, MMM is trying (very unsuccessfully) to manipulate me by saying that god loves me. Firstly, as I said, the christian bible is filled with passages that are very hateful towards non-believers such as myself.

But what if their bible DID preach a message of love? It does not, but what if it did? What then? Some religions/cults DO preach unconditional love, and they are using it as a method to control and manipulate people.

If you would like to read more about how the concept of unconditional love is used to control and manipulate people (as MMM is trying to do), then please get the book "The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power" by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad. Specifically Part 2 ("Ideological Masks"), Chapter 4 ("Love and Control").

MMM seems to be very nice by saying that god loves me, but if you read that book, you can learn how she is actually being rather unethical. Most people that preach unconditional love are actually bad people. Usually it is guru con-artists who use the unconditional love trick, but in this case we have a christian doing it (not particularly surprising, religious people use many unethical forms of manipulation).

Paula
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20 Jun 2006, 1:59 am

And yet just about everytime a Christian post you gotta post to. I believe it is you who are trying to manipulate here. And the question was...who would I want to see in heaven???? I'd really like to see you, as it is not God's will that anyone should perish. 2 Peter 3:9

emp
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20 Jun 2006, 6:25 am

Paula wrote:

I believe it is you who are trying to manipulate here.

You are demonstrating another common manipulation technique used by religious people -- they accuse other people of their own bad behavior.

MMM used that same technique earlier in this thread, when accusing me of being selective. Veresae caught it and replied to MMM, "I find it really ironic for you to say that when you yourself are only paying attention to specific parts of the bible and ignoring the rampant immoral acts that it says god has gotten away with".

So you have both tried that technique now. You are both rather transparent to me. Your unethical little tricks are ineffective against me!

MMM
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20 Jun 2006, 1:58 pm

Emp,

I'm really disappointed. I can't believe that all you can say is that I'm a bad, evil person who manipulates. I really thought you could do better than that. You must be busy or tired.

I will admit I do bad & evil things & I fully admit I at times use manipulation!! !! !! !! !! !! But the bad & evil stuff is what I do to myself like eat too much chocolate and pray for God to fix my vacuum. The manipulation stuff is for when I'm really tired and can't figure out anyway to get my children to make their beds so I threaten to not let them use the computer for a day. Oh yes, I know how to manipulate. Don't we all? Or are you perfect? Oh wait, I also use profanity, watch TV, get mad & yell at my husband, & don't let me get started on my college years.

I am probably the worst person on wp. I admit it. But God loves me & I believe He loves you. And truth be known, I am hoping it pisses you off when I say it. SIN #1111111111111 for me. But when God says it, He means it. It is Christian's like me who give Christian's a bad name. I'm not good at playing like I'm perfect, nice, without flaws. I only know how to be perfectly honest & we all know that is not good. I believe God loves you, because if He can love me & bless me after everything I've done, I think He can love anyone. But I am tired and this is the best I can do for now. I disappoint myself. I will tackle all the previous post later - I feel so popular!

As U2 would say, "We're one, but we're not the same, we get to carry each other, carry each other, ONE Love."

I love you even if I don't like you, but I find myself liking you even when I don't want to,
MMM

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