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duncvis
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07 Apr 2005, 5:04 am

Ahem. I do not want to have to remove any more personal attacks on this thread - separate the argument from the person please.

Dunc :evil:


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ed
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07 Apr 2005, 5:36 am

Thank you, Dunc.



ghotistix
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07 Apr 2005, 8:17 am

jmatucd wrote:
Those were innocent civilians! noncombatants!! ! Men women and children. Have you not seen the videos shot of the survivors and of the immediate aftermath of the attack?

So far, the US military has killed over 100,000 noncombatants in Iraq, most of them women and children. (source)

ascan wrote:
You've criticised the US for engaging in that list of conflicts you've produced, but I think you forget why you are able to sit behind your PC, in relative luxury, and do this. That applies to many people in many countries, including us here in the UK. We all owe the US a huge debt of gratitude. Has it crossed your mind that, unlikely as it may seem, the Iraqis may, at some point in the future, feel the same?

It wasn't meant as a criticism of the United States' war history. I was just pointing out that the US has had a far more violent past than Iraq has, and that any country in the world can be portrayed as evil without much effort.



171NewYork
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14 Apr 2005, 6:26 pm

Bush is probably gonna start World War III. :skull:



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15 Apr 2005, 5:26 pm

171NewYork wrote:
Bush is probably gonna start World War III. :skull:


I second that motion. Trust me, i know my Divination.


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Rakkety_Tamm
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15 Apr 2005, 7:14 pm

171NewYork wrote:
Bush is probably gonna start World War III. :skull:

And that's a bad thing?


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171NewYork
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16 Apr 2005, 9:54 am

I sent hate mail to Bush once...I got in trouble for it. :x



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16 Apr 2005, 12:02 pm

171NewYork wrote:
I sent hate mail to Bush once...I got in trouble for it. :x


You didn't threaten anybody, did you?


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171NewYork
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16 Apr 2005, 4:11 pm

But my mom is an a*****e. :x



Bec
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16 Apr 2005, 6:07 pm

In case anyone is interested, I just looked up the current body count of Iraqi civilians killed by the US intervention. For the minimum it is 17,384 dead and for he maximum it is 19,770 dead.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Since the start of the war, there have been 1553 deaths of American soldiers. Even more horrible is 1086 of these deaths ocurred since the capture of Saddam Hussein, and there have been 121 since George W. Bush was elected a second time.

http://icasualties.org/oif/ and http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/



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17 Apr 2005, 5:45 pm

171NewYork wrote:
But my mom is an a*****e. :x


I don't think you should call her names on the site... I am sure she is a little mean from the way you talk about her, but if she reads your posts, as mothers do, there will be trouble.


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27 Apr 2005, 6:20 pm

*Sighs.* We've all seen the history channel documentries of vietnam and korea.

In vietnam civilians were made to strap on bombs and walk up to U.S. soldiers to beg for food, water, etc. They were detonated in the middle of the soldiers. Eventually the U.S. soldiers had to say "Don't move, or we'll have to shoot."

In Iraq the regime we ousted is using guerilla tactics against the U.S. without regard to the innocent bystanders it harms. At least you believe that there have been murders, because if you got one of the terrorists on here posting they would say that none of those deaths were uncalled for.

Does anyone know how many civilians a year were killed in iraq before the U.S. invaded?

If WWIII is started, it won't be "Just because of Bush." I can guarentee you that it will be because some third world country got trigger happy with some U.S.S.R. nuke. We all know which one I'm talking about.

Please, listen to reason. Clinton was put on trial for having sex in the whitehouse, Bush would have been put on trial for killing 20K people, the truth is, he hasn't.



ed
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27 Apr 2005, 6:56 pm

If a foreign contry invaded and conquered the U.S., i would hope and expect that patriotic Americans would create guerilla groups to attack the conqueror. I'd like to think that I would join one. If I did, I would not only kill the invaders, but also any American who cooperated with them. I would consider this to be a patriotic act - just as I consider those Iraqis fighting us to be patriots. Since moral right is on their side, I hope they win.



ghotistix
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27 Apr 2005, 8:00 pm

Kitsune wrote:
Does anyone know how many civilians a year were killed in iraq before the U.S. invaded?

I don't know the exact numbers but the chart from the link I posted explains the difference pretty well. Violent deaths compared to other causes jumped from 2% to 51% since the invasion.



ascan
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28 Apr 2005, 6:11 am

Ed, you're not really describing the situation accurately. I don't think "conquer" is the best choice of word.

How can you say so certainly where the moral right lies, it's a complicated situation? I can understand why some Iraqis choose to fight, I can also understand why many have welcomed the removal of the previous regime. I can also guess at many of the motives for Bush's actions, that serve the interests of your country. Morality is rather a subjective measure, but I'd suggest that your comments in relation to "winning" are rather immoral :wink: .

Putting aside all arguments of whether the US should have invaded, the fact is that to withdraw now would be very difficult to justify. What do you think the consequences would be?



ed
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28 Apr 2005, 11:58 am

Bush (now) says we went into Iraq to remove Sadaam from power. We did that. We should leave.

There can be no peace in Iraq as long as we have armed forces there. Whatever happens, if we leave there is a chance for peace. If we stay, there isn't.

It is not immoral to want Iraqis to win their freedom from our occupying forces. I repeat it again: I hope they succeed, and force us to withdraw with our tail between our legs.