What are we like in the eyes of outsiders?

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All of them.

Sticking with the topic-question:

Let's try asking this (thread's main-topic) question in a few, DIFFERENT ways, such as:


1) Which of your AS "traits" are MOST noticable (to NTs)?

2) Which of your traits (would you guess) are
MOST FRUSTRATING (to them)?

3) How do you think their perception (of you)
has changed over time?



(Sharing your answers [here] will probably help some of us better understand NTs and, thus, better interact with 'em. Whether you enjoy spending time around NTs or NOT, improved communication & interaction with them [which comes from improved understanding of how they perceive you] will probably make your life happier, right?)

Can I offer a thought, here?

Most people - NTs - exist in and see themselves as defined by a social context. Part of a big network of well-defined and very complex relationships. Plenty of people wouldn't know how to begin defining themselves outside that context, without reference to it. Many have no clear sense of themselves except as part of a social context -- families, communities, etc.

That context is really important. The way those networks are organized and function -- that's what makes it possible for people to live and work together without killing each other, get lots done, give and receive the love and reassurance they need, take care of the myriad bits of hooha needed to maintain a normal adult life, all sorts of things.

If you go wandering around without awareness of the existence of these networks and their rules, they notice it immediately, and -- depending on what you're doing -- you can really screw things up for them. This is where so much of the "childish/childlike" talk comes from -- children aren't aware of all these things and have to be taught -- in fact that's a huge part of childrearing. Somewhere around age 8 or so, most kids will start paying acute attention to these things on their own, trying to learn them, learn the dance steps. 2nd-graders will drive you nuts with literal interpretations of rules and justice-seeking, but by 5th or 6th grade, they're listening and watching intently for unwritten rules, and experimenting with them. That's why girls are suddenly mean. By college they're supposed to know that that may be flashy, but it's not the way to do it. It's expected that by the time they hit their mid-20s, they've figured out how to get along, do the dances, in some kind of civil and socially-sustainable way.

So -- your conversation may go crashing across their social rules. How you're dressed, what you're doing, how you want to interact or not interact -- same.

I think really AS isn't so much a matter of mindblindness as it is of blindness to the fact that the people they're talking to are not single-serving, don't see themselves that way, but exist as part of a social context. It makes a big difference.

Tarantella64,

That was a thoughtful and interesting response. I have lotsa trouble with seeing and caring about social cues, but... I think I can kinda understand what you're saying. I'll re-read your thoughts and think about them.

Thanks, so much!

Interesting!

Tarantella64,
Thanks for helping (us) folks who're on "the spectrum"! !!

Tarantella, masterfully explained. This piece should be given much more exposure on the internet. It explains the very root of all our social issues. As I always say, no "social skills" training will ever help meaningfully, for we're rejected and attacked because we threaten their delicate, complex systems. Story of my life.

Well, like I said, I used to be much more ASish myself, so I don't not get it. I still don't understand why or how things changed in my head, and I'm still nothing brilliant socially, but I've gotten by.

I think a major problem with NT accommodation of people with AS is that NTers don't generally think about how they do what they do. There's no pressing need to analyze it except in specific circumstances (Janelle really pissed off Martine, what would it take for Martine to forgive and let things go on nicely in our circle; little Caleb's not finding friends, what might be the problem; etc). A meta view, looking at the whole system from outside -- I don't hear too many people doing that except maybe in the context of management, which is something people come to relatively late in life. So they don't recognize that they live within and practice this complex set of relational rules, and that this is something they've spent decades learning to do. It's like trying to remember how you learned to read.

If NTers could be shown this, I think it might make it easier for them to cope with aspies. You know: there isn't that awareness of social networks, but there is intense focus on things -- useful things, maybe -- that you can't get to without making things difficult socially and probably don't want to get to anyway. And, also, aspies=people. I think that might incline the more able to figure out how aspies can be integrated into a social context even though they might not be able to notice it, because obviously that makes things like survival easier. Also, maybe, happiness.

I imagine too that it'd engender some real perplexity in the more thoughtful -- what could it mean, not to feel oneself to be part of a social context? It might be a frightening thought. And maybe a way of explaining it would be to remind people of that sensation, in childhood, of being totally lost in play, or in a book, with no practical worries intruded, just gone from the world, and then maybe a mean teacher was suddenly there looming. As a more or less permanent way of being. Except that where you'd try to shake a child out of that, sometimes, and make him reconnect to the world, this simply isn't going to happen very much of the time for adults with AS... only they have to pretend it does, and it's a tremendous strain, a source of tremendous anxiety. And they aren't children, and you can't treat them that way,and the sort of impatience you'd have with a child who was fooling around is inappropriate. It's simply a different developmental path.

I don't know. I have a feeling that's not quite right on either side. But something along those lines.

I think I kinda understand what you mean. I think, in part, you're sayin' it could be useful for both parties if managerial NTs could better-integrate employed Aspies into their workplace - to do their hardest, mental-focus-required "(mental) dirty work" (which the Aspies would likely love&thrive on, but-which the NTs would likely hate - as it would interfere with their nearly-innate, NT, "I have-a-role-within-a-larger-and-important(-to-my-happiness)-group-structure", social-identity mentality), but, unfortunately, most managerial NTs probably don't understand exactly HOW they, themselves, understand all the complex social-cues (which THEY've learned [rather easily] from an early age) and are, thus, baffled and not very appreciative of Aspies (and their hyper-sensitive social predicaments) and are, therefore, probably inefficient in allocating tasks (to Aspies) and probably don't treat them with due respect.

(Tarantella64, I think I'm CLOSE to understanding you. Right? Thanks for your well-thought-out contributions!!)

Tarantella.... I have no idea what you're saying here. Can you please repeat the content of both your posts and explain from scratch and as detailed and elaborate as you can? I just don't get it.


WilFindUndrstndng, what do you mean by
"I think, in part, you're sayin' it could be useful for both parties if managerial NTs could better-integrate employed Aspies into their workplace - to do their hardest, mental-focus-required "(mental) dirty work" (which the Aspies would likely love&thrive on,"?
What do you see as mental.focus required mental dirty work??

Skilpadde,

I, also, was trying to understand a few parts of Tarantella64's most-recent post. (I think I kinda "got it".I've read it many times, but I may've, still, missed the point.) I apologize if I missed her point. I believe she was speaking, in part, about SOCIAL integration in the workplace and how NTs have a hard time 1) understanding Aspies' social behaviors and 2) (how NTs have a hard time) doing some of the mentally-taxing work (meaning: intense, focus-required work, in general - [the kind of work] which may be easier for Aspies). Admittedly, I kinda "went off" into "another realm"...adding some of my own opinions (focusing more on employment aspects than on social aspects) and guessing at a few of Tarantell64's meanings. She said some really deep, interesting things!

I was trying my best to add to this discussion (not take-away from it). Sometimes, reading this board can be a chore, but, the point is, we're each trying to add something helpful. I sincerely appreciate everyone's efforts and I'm glad thst this is a casual forum. Please, feel free to add your opinions!

I find this thread incredibly insightful and am glad that tarantella64 has shared her opinions. I'm hoping other NT's find their way here to do the same. Because of this topic, I'm going to ask my wife similar questions so I can understand how she sees me and what I can do better and/or how we can come to an agreement on things.

In the past I have been described as, "rude, self-centered, snotty, brash, opinionated, coarse, introverted (I am), reclusive (I can be) and shy (I am)" and have had problems controlling my emotions and temper. From as far back as I can remember in my childhood, I was picked on for being "different" and "too honest".

The post from elkclan at first struck a nerve with me, but that's because there was a whole lot of truth to it. What really struck me was this:

"The bad" is so very true - at least to me it is. I know I tend to ruffle feathers because I get tired of "stroking egos" and just want to get stuff done, so I take control and get it done. The last paragraph was particularly difficult for me to stomach, but again, it is the truth - at least pertaining to me.

Yeah. THAT excerpt (Elkclan's paragraphs) stopped ME in MY tracks, too!


Thanks for your opinions!

Well...not quite.

I'm talking about all NTs, not just managerial ones, or managerial situations. Hang on and I'll get back to that.

Think of it this way, skilpadde: When you talk to your average NT, you are not talking to one person. You are talking to a being embedded so deeply in multiple relationships that he can't be taken out of them. You're talking to relationships with parents, friends, siblings, a spouse, children, church groups, community boards, workplace departments. Every thing this person says will be informed by these relationships, because he does not conceive of himself as a person separate from them. Everything you say to him will be heard in the context of those relationships. And these relationships are the most important thing in his life. Yes, he may love photography or the Maine coast or whatever; but those relationships are the atmosphere of his daily life, the thing most dear to him.

What he does all day, as he goes about his business, is to send out a steady stream of signals, and make myriad adaptations, so that all those relationships keep on working. He's acutely aware of what he might do to offend others and avoids doing it, often at significant personal cost -- not because he loves them so much, but because to him causing harsh reverb in the social network is one of the scariest things he can do. The idea of being outside that network -- if he does think about it, it feels like a kind of death. For some people, keeping those relationships happy is practically all they do. Professional mothers? That's it, that's their life, maintaining relationships among people, making those networks healthy and happy. The ones I know are fantastic at it.

It all sounds a little sci-fi the way I'm putting it here, which is not how people experience it. People who live in it feel it to be warm, supportive, a thing that makes them alive and the world a good place.

It also distresses a lot of NTs to see people on the outside, because to them, it's just unimaginably awful and sad. Those with more bandwidth and more attuned to connection actually want to bring people in. If they could be taught to understand what AS is, and why people with AS will never really get their world, then my guess is that many of them would be able to invent ways of bringing people with AS into the social network in ways that accept the AS blindness and limited tolerance for socializing -- ways that don't harm the network. I doubt you will ever stop them hoping or believing that being ensconced that way will "wake them (ASers) up" or teach them some sort of socialisation, Helen-Keller-style, but whatever.

The point is that once people with AS are brought into such social networks, the odds of, say, homelessness and unemployment go way down. Homelessness is a symptom of disconnectedness as much as anything else. The more stable, able friends you have, the less likely you are to be homeless. the more such people view themselves as your friends, the more likely it is that one or more of them will find work for you to do, work that you can do.

(Personally, I think a great NT manager of ASers would give the AS person a problem to work on, set him loose, occasionally redirect, and then come in and take the project away when it's been finished or solved to the point that the company actually needs, not to the point the ASer finds pleasing (which may well be the point "never", or, equally likely, the point "oh I wasn't interested in that anymore, I've been doing this instead"). But it requires some understanding of what AS is.)

A lot of ASishness would actually be very difficult for an NT to accept as a permanent, fixed state, though, because so much of it reads as rudeness and immaturity, the sorts of thing that would not be let slide in young people. These are things you're supposed to fix in yourself. The idea that they aren't fixable in AS, except superficially, temporarily, and at great psychological cost...that's hard for people to swallow, and hard for them not to react negatively to. And that's where they do go looking, in the end, for "well, if we put ourselves out for AS people, do we get anything in return or do we just have unpleasant people making trouble for us?" Which is why there was that savant focus on autism a few years ago -- "yes, this person's impossible to live with, but he's a mystical genius!"

A more realistic view, maybe -- one that says, "Sure, maybe you don't want this person in your office all day, but just clear a little space for him in your basement or let him work alone in a flat somewhere. Or let this person work four months on, eight months off. You're doing a good thing by taking him into your universe of people, you get some useful work, maybe some excellent work, and he doesn't have to drive himself to the point of tears all day trying to fit into an office environment that you find quite comfortable." Maybe that could happen.

Taratella64,

Thank-you for your patience and for "putting-it a different way" for me/us. (I think I see, now!)



I wish everyone would read what you just-wrote.

Tarentella, I understand exactly what you're saying. You have confirmed my conclusions. My first thought when I am dealing in a situation is "what are the rules?" I've always thought of society as a system of rules and procedures. This is just one part. What you're saying is we live in a society that is a system of relationships. People's identities come from these very relationships. This is how people obtain things like jobs and this is how the workplace works.

My wife and I have a non-profit. When we were out at different events I observed her and notated the word that she said. She kept saying the word relationship and building relationships a lot. My tendency is to look for the rules governing a system. Hers is to build relationships.

It is no wonder people get pissed at me and have a rage when I question their contradictions in their beliefs. By my questioning the NTs' beliefs and values I am questioning their identity and their very soul. The axiom for how I function is looking for a set of rules that govern a system. With NTs, the rules govern the relationships and maintain harmony. This includes the law as well. The rules themselves as a whole are not axiomatic themselves but are stemmed from relationships.

You know what is crazy, as I understand myself I understand the thought process of NTs and vice versa. For me, it is cyclic. It is no wonder I had major issues trying to figure out how to procure employment. I would have to know how to seek out and develop relationships. It isn't about the rules even though NTs do have rules and procedures.

Totally makes sense to me. And yes, relationship-building and -maintenance are huge deals in the nonprofit world, because you're always out there asking for things, trying to inspire people, trying to build the sense that you're working towards something together and that you share values. To someone of an ASish frame of mind, the work can seem terribly duplicitous: you go courting some big donor, say, and you're warming them up because you need X from them. Some people are naturals at this work; I'm not, but I learned to do it, and the thing is that there isn't any duplicity. The donors know you're coming to ask. And in their conversation with you, not only are they genuinely connecting and sharing values with you, but they're testing you: Do you know what you're doing? Will you use their money (or whatever) well? Will you be properly appreciative and make sure they get credit? Have you worked out a role them as a donor that they like? And they're waiting for the ask. It's a complex relationship. And it doesn't work at all to go in saying, "Here's what we're doing, you should want to give money." You also have to work with allied organizations, legislators, community organizers, volunteers, all kinds of people.

That may be one of the hardest thing for aspies to understand/accept, and for NTs to describe: how, to various degrees, motives that aren't worn on sleeves are all in the game, almost universally recognized. My daughter's far, far more socially aware than I am, and she used to amaze me by spotting people's motives on TV shows even when she was three or four years old. What people don't trust is when they can't understand or gauge a hidden motive. It means someone's playing an unfamiliar game, and that makes people nervous.

Generally people aren't playing games for the hell of it, either. It's because they're trying to feel you out, understand who you are in relation to themselves and what kind of friend/colleague/etc. you might or might not be. They want to understand what you want. They don't want to hurt feelings, they don't want to offend -- and most people are quite easily offended. They want to feel your vibe so they know how to respond.

But yeah, exactly -- when you go in for a job interview, unless it's for something terribly functional, they're looking as much at a potential relationship as they are at whether or not you can do the thing. I do it too. Ten minutes ago I got a call from someone who wants to clean my house. My biggest worries, when I hire a cleaning person, are to do with theft, a sense of untrustworthiness, and unreliability. I want someone who'll respect my home, clean it well, and show up punctually. So I listen very hard, check references (are the references anyone I know? Friends of anyone I know?), and interview in person. Any bad vibe, and no, I'm not hiring that person to come into my house and mess with my things while I'm not home. It's not, in the end, just about "can you run a vacuum cleaner". Same with the students who work for me: I want a sense of who they are and how we can work together, also what I might be able to do for them and what their futures might be like, before I hire them.

This is one of the hardest things to talk about, too. My friend was sending out resumes like crazy last year, got a few good interviews: no good. I knew before he left for them that he was in trouble, just because he didn't pay attention to how he dressed. He's got a suit that no longer fits him, was never fashionable, is ancient, and is suitable only for cold weather. In other words, he looks like he got it at Goodwill, and is so unaware of how he looks and what it means that the issue isn't just lack of money. It meant "I am outside your world." But I didn't know how to say so without sending him into a rage. He was already at capacity, he didn't have money for a new suit, he wasn't in a spot for criticism, and the prospect of shopping, choosing, suitwearing, etc -- too much.

The only thing I'd pick at in what you're saying is about is this: "It is no wonder people get pissed at me and have a rage when I question their contradictions in their beliefs. By my questioning the NTs' beliefs and values I am questioning their identity and their very soul" Look, if you're a node in a network, and you've got lots of connections out to lots of differing people, ideas, etc, then you have to be able to be okay with holding contradictory ideas (and believing on some level that the ideas themselves don't matter as much as the relationships do). Few people view this as hypocrisy -- though they do take hypocrisy very seriously as a criticism. If you're taking people to task for having enough play in the system to do this sort of thing, and calling them hypocrites for it, then yes, they'll become very angry with you. Because they think you're using their own definition of hypocrisy. Yours wouldn't occur to them. If you introduce it, they'll likely reject it angrily, because you're telling them that in doing something normal and relationally healthy, they're somehow doing something seriously wrong.