does the sexism in the men only area bother you?

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Racism is not allowed here. Do you feel there is a need. Are there racist members here who feel they need a safe place to vent their feelings?

Where are you going to school? In my engineering class, it was almost half women, and I was top of the class before I quit because it was so freakingly boringly easy, and I was sick of everyone trying to catch up to me. In most colleges in my state, the stats show that at least a third of engineering students are women. That the program contained a significant portion of women was important to me, as I didn't want to face being the only woman. Was I pleasantly surprised at the changes...

And in the States, over half of medical school students are women. Are they dipwads, too? How about the sudden increase of women in Law?

A friend of mine used to believe men were naturally better at mathematics than women, that they had that certain something women didn't have. She has been a mathematics professor for 25 years at three different universities. We were talking in the last two weeks about my doctoral work, and she admitted that she has seen some incredible female math students who totally outshone all of the others. One was a sixteen year old local girl, and another is from a small island in the South Pacific. The sixteen year old wants to be a physicist, which I thought majorly cool.

While your info, Ahayes, may be accurate, I would call it anecdotal at best, and not representative of what's happening in the world, especially in other countries.

Besides, the head of NASA is a woman.

Metta, Rjaye.

Zannemarie--

I agree with you, and unfortunately hurt feelings don't get examined very often. Men use women and women use men, and aspies get hurt on all sides when they get mixed up in the NT games.

I don't understand the NT games, and I don't understand the lack of self-examination in this world, and men playing games just fries my grits. Women playing games just twist my knickers, and not in a good way.

The lack of empathy is rampant, but then, this is an AS board. No wonder we feel like we're bashing our heads against a brick wall sometimes.

So, as much as I'd like a relationship with a man sometimes, there aren't many men who would even attempt to understand me, and it seems Aspie men even less. And they don't get how awful they sound when they say things like "if I could only GET a woman," like we're a thing to be used at their disposal. And then when women here try to explain to our Aspie brothers what WE are looking for, they skew the answers to back up their view of how awful women are.

And many believe if they can just learn the "game," they would have much more success with "romance." I don't think that's true--we might learn a few things, like better eye contact, small talk, but we would only be able to do it superficially. We don't really understand it.

Many of the males think AS women somehow have it better, just because we get men hitting on us (some of us very occasionally), but get a clue guys. The one thing NT women understand is you don't say yes to first guy who flirts. You want to know why? Because the first people to hit on people in a bar, or other meat market, are THE as*holes, because these jerks have no pride and no clue. After the jerks, boys, if a gal doesn't have some ability to play the "game," she has no better chance than you guys.

We all have a range of deficits, and some of us are worse off than others, plus some of us have no desire to play the male/female game, because it's a social construct that doesn't make sense to us.

And I don't believe in those constructs.

Metta, Rjaye

a fully ABET accredited engineering college

I think we are all living in a confused state because we can't read the signs. Take my AS/AS or AS/NT poll by the way. I really don't think these so called experts are correct about AS/AS being desirable. If anything, I would think AS women would be even more intolerant of things like personal hygeine, weird ideas about women, etc. than NT women on the whole (exceptions in both of course!). It doesn't make sense to me, but that's me. I'd like to know what others think.

Anyway, I think much of the frustration leading to those comments is sexual frustration stemming from the notion that there is a secret handbook that describes easily in clear, concrete instructions how to get the girl. That isn't happening. There are too many vagaries in normal human social behavior. Looks can mean different things. If she stares, she could think you're interesting or wonder why you are so strange. I'm 47 and still can't read them and just about never get them right when I guess. AND, I have had to be around "normal" people my whole life whether in school, college or the work place. I scored a 2 on reading eyes. LOL I guess I better never depend on that. But, I guess my point is that these guys get a skewed world view because of so many failures in which they invested so much of themselves. People get angry because their feelings are hurt, not because of intellectual reasons. So misogynistic comments find their source in hurt. It goes on because they try to play a game in which they only are dealing with 88% of the deck maybe, but their opponent is allowed to use 100%. It could even be higher than that when you consider that 80% of "normal" human communication and interaction is non-verbal. That is a huge deficit to deal with and I am not of the group that thinks we ever get it. We fake it or mimic it and it ends up awkward and stilted at best, where people just wonder why you have such a strange way of interpreting things, but can get along with you. It still doesn't mean they will get the girl.


I see it on here with the few regular women we've had come on and try to help these guys. It's like they don't get it either. They tell them to show interest in the girl, but don't understand that the guys can't read facial expressions, eyes or body language (all of which they bring up to watch) and do not know how to appropriately respond when they take a chance (talk about themselves too much, stare at body parts to avoid eyes, miss cues when women are dropping hints or flirting, etc.). To me, that is what leads to it. They don't understand and no NT woman would explain it because they don't understand what the guy is missing (apparently it is hard even when they are on here for awhile because it is always hard to get outside your own reality which something also true of us) and AS women can't explain it because we can't read it ourselves.


By the way, the AS guys think AS women have it easier because the guys speaking up are looking for sex. So they are saying if we want sex we can have it, which is true, but most women, AS or otherwise, aren't content with just that and have no desire to be used that way. So, that view is completely skewed and it is also a common NT male view. I hear it from NT males all the time. In fact, all of the stuff these guys say I've heard from NT males over the years when they don't realize a woman can hear them. The difference is that they are trying to hide it because they know it won't get them any dates. (By the way, it is not socially acceptable to talk about it no matter how much your feelings are hurt guys, so you might want to remember that outside the men's discussion. You'll only decrease your chances with women and if you do that at work you will be fired for it. I guarantee you. It is against the law, some woman will complain and you will be fired. So don't take it out into general forums because you are just learning bad habits and you'll "forget" when you are out in the world and end up in trouble. Not good.)

I think the game is part social construct and part brain evolution (being able to read non-verbal cues). We're left out of both sides because we don't understand.

Word, ZanneMarie...

There is no magic potion to help Aspies to get along with society, and we have to make do with what we do have. We are never going to pick up on social cues, and we are not going to fit into a proscribed gender role because we don't understand and often don't want to be boxed in like that because it doesn't make sense.

I'm wondering if some of the AS guys are setting themselves up for failure by hitting on a certain NT female type who is looking for someone similar to themselves. Also, if the guys are anything like us, one rejection is like a hundred rejections as we don't have any skin, so to speak.

I read some posts by guys on other boards, and perhaps on this one, that AS guys think an AS woman would be the answer, except most AS women are asexual or lesbian. If we had better empathy, the guys would pick up how frustrated AS women are by the games, and the objectifying neediness of some guys. If it only takes a couple of rejections to sour the guys on women, they need to understand that while women would like sex, they want the relationship with it, and we've been burned by guys just not getting it (which is what you wrote).

How Aspie is that-repeating what others have written.

I think we all would be more successful in our relationships and potential relationships if we accepted our limitations, cultivated those relationship abilities we do have, and change some of our limiting expectations.

And while I was a bit snippy in my last post on this thread, I think we can give each other the benefit of the doubt when it comes to sensitive subjects. Sometimes I think we beat ourselves up worse than certain NT autism educators who claim with the right training, autistic traits can be eradicated, and any Aspie can be a Casanova or Mata Hari .

Nope, they won't. We have several dino-Aspies who would agree with that. We are Aspies, Aspies, Aspies, and we have to play to our strengths.

Metta, Rjaye

Then you should stop any women on here that make generalized negative statements about men. Otherwise, you are guilty. Or are you going to attack the fact that I'm male, and "invading?"

Shade,


Yes we should, but I think originally it was the really blatant posts and probably graphic ones that got the post going. I'm just guessing though. You are completely correct, though, it goes both ways.


Here's one thing I wonder and Alex and the moderators should consider. This forum is open to all including children and their parents. Parents, NT or AS, are not going to appreciate those posts anywhere that their children can see it. Beyond the obvious reasons that no child should be reading words like c__t in a regular forum, the fostering of hate amongst posters by allowing some posts to go unchecked (without levity or reality checks) is really going to start keeping away young posters when their parents see that. It's a two fold issue there - the words are offensive and it fosters bad behavior that could end up getting that kid kicked out of school and/or fired later on. Aspie or not, that behavior can be modified and it won't be tolerated in open society (and we aren't good at deciphering the difference between our home and talking to a co-worker in a space where someone can overhear). I think as a forum we may have to look at a solution that allows us to vent, while still being inviting to young people (and women). We need to be able to help each other and protect each other from bad habits. So maybe the solution is to have password only parts of the forum where we can go rant? Would that help? It would be kind of like group therapy is for men who have committed domestic violence (not that they are the same, but it's all I can think of, sorry guys). In those groups, the men have to be able to say whatever to expose the root cause. The other guys though give them a reality check to expose the behavior and correct it. Obviously some really ugly things come out there, but good things happen as well. So maybe a passworded forum could be our answer. What do you think?

Alex? Mods? I know you guys hate the idea of restricted threads, but do you see where this could be a real issue to us? I don't want outsiders, especially "normal" parents thinking this is a bad site to let kids come visit. I think that really breaks down what we are all about and undermines our validity with the outside world. I would hate to see that happen. However, I can see the potential for that happening all too easily.

Well, I have received no specific complaints about posts in the Men's Forum.

i think it's a great idea ZanneMarie! the "open-ness" of forums (available for all) to see bothers me somewhat about posting, what could be considered "taboo" topics in here. i've read and re-read my posts from before analyzing them and scrutinizing thier content etc. and it makes me ponder how i appear to be to other people. i worry that i've been offensive or brash in my opinions or statements. then i read other peoples' posts and think similar things. i'm not suggesting that this site gets "watered down" in content, but, perhaps there should be some kind of "filter" ie; using a password, to access certain topics. this could be seen as being a pc move, and i don't suggest that transaction, but some members can be downright hostile! i do appreciate each members' opinions and experiences, so i think that banishing " verbally aggresive members" would serve little or no purpose, whilst in the pursuit of deeper understanding, of ourselves and others as well. the more and more i read about members of the community, the more of myself i see, yet, ironically, don't see. i think the initial purpose of this site was to inform and connect socially maladjusted individuals whom seek enlightenment and companionship not found elsewhere. i'm drawn to the unique problems posed by every person who contributes, yet, unaware of the actual deficiences (since, i cannot truly know you, nor you me) that occur in everday events. the day to day mundane routines that upset or intregue each one of us. i cannot speak for you, but only *hopefully* learn from you that which i may lack. and vice-versa. some members or visitors, come here in search of answers; friends, partners, advice, information, acceptance, esteem. we dawdle and dwindle our precious time in search of relief. essentially, that is what i believe. enough, with this run-on rant. i might bite my tongue and edit this later. thank you.

And that might be fine Mark, except for the fact that many people (and especially NT or mainstream people) won't do that. That is kind of normal for us to be so blunt, but if you look at the outside world, they read those things from their perspective, which is very different than ours, and it puts them off because they think we are being rude and obnoxious (basically the same problems we all have in every day life), so they just leave and say nothing. That is my concern. I don't want us to become some kind of community that is offputting or looks to foster behavior in every day life that would not be acceptable and thus become our own worst enemy.

But, I also want us to be able to say what we feel and deal with our issues, which are real and need to be addressed.


So, it's just something for us to mull about and consider.

Well, it would be unfortunate if visitors and newcomers skipped down to the Men's or Women's or Mature forums and formed an opinion about the entire site and all aspies based on what they found there. Most people only see things that confirm what they already believe anyway. More thoughtful people from all segments of society know better than to generalize about "all members" of a group. I think anybody that reads more than a few threads will realize that aspies are as diverse as any other group. Why is there no concern that generalizations will be made like "No aspies are prejudiced or sexist?" Are we only concerned about people making negative generalizations? Isn't that just as bad as saying that all Asians are smart? Some aspies are real idiots and as*holes, just like some NTs. The view that I'd like others to see is that in most ways we're just like anybody else. There will always be people who make sweeping generalizations based on selected facts. Their generalizations say more about them than about the groups which they generalize. I can't do anything about that.

No, this is a problem as well. Claims such as "All NTs are bad / evil / hateful / oblivious" are only made worse by their counterparts, like "Aspies aren't like that."

A lot of this keeps coming back to the "Us versus Them" mentality that some people seem to take, be it AS versus NT, , Man versus Woman, or whatever. These prejudices shouldn't be tolerated, but at times they are so deeply rooted that it is difficult to even make the guilty parties aware of the issue.

But then of course, we start getting close to the old mindset of "this behavior shouldn't be tolerated" and Autistics just behave that way because they choose to do so. I shouldn't even say old mindset because it is still around and I don't mean all people think this way, but there are still some who do.

It wouldn't be tolerated in the work place by law as men/women, but the law says nothing for an AS making NT statements. Case law would have to take that on if it was brought to trial.

Be that as it may, we have to balance talking about frustrations even when they lead to somewhat skewed views from many angles and not running off parents or new members who are in fact going to check out all threads on the forum. Parents especially will check out every thread their child can get to and decide whether or not they are going to allow their child on here based upon that. If they didn't and it was an issue that hit the news, the parent would be immediately asked why they hadn't checked out the entire site. So it is an issue we would do best to be proactive, rather than reactive with as a community. Otherwise, we'll end up with a big mess similar to Myspace who also mistakenly thought it would never be their issue to correct. The fact is that unfortunately this is the world we live in.

If you don't believe that, just take a click on over to Love and Dating and see what was posted on "what do females look for" today. I don't even have kids, but I have nephews and if you think I would recommend this site to them after seeing that, you'd be quite wrong. They're kids and kids look at everything they can. They don't need to be looking at that. That is the bottom line. If I see it as a non-parent, parents are going to feel even more strongly about it.

There's always an answer to issues like this if we just let ourselves see them.

The "Love and Dating" section, ah yes. Another bunch of threads with derailing potential!

These are good questions. Do we place a warning on certain threads? Do we have an age requirement to visit certain threads?

As for the derogatory comments of women regarding men, and men regarding women, AS folks regarding NTs...maybe what is happening is the best that can happen, though some of the thrashing seems extreme, and without voices of reason to tone it down.

I also noticed that many of the more impassioned statements are by our younger members, and once I started checking profiles, I was more reluctant to reply to certain comments. To me, what am I going to say to a 17 yo that will change his or her mind, or the twenty yo, or the twenty-three yo, or get that person to chill out? They still know it all, as my mother used to say, and we need to get them working before they forget it.

This is a valuable discussion. How do we deal with our more graphic subjects with much younger members and their parents? How do we assure them? It's important these people have access to Wrong Planet in their search for info.

Metta, Rjaye

I don't think the workplace comparison is really valid. The reason many behaviors are prohibited by law in the workplace is that we believe that people have to go to work. We believe that they are entitled to earn the living they are able to in an enviornment which is free of unnecessary harrassment and hostility.

I don't think we believe people have similar entitlement in places they are free to choose to visit or not to visit.

(BTW, I think the law here, Fl, US, does prohibit any behavior, including AS vs. NT, which creates a "hostile environment" in the workplace, though private companies with fewer than 50 employees may be exempt. We like to encourage small business.)