Can't decide-- Fight for mainstream, or Homeschool

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You miss out on one of the biggest benefits of homeschooling -- customizing the curriculum to match your child's interests and learning style. You're stuck with someone else's selections and probably their expectations for pace. You have all the work and accountability of teaching without control over content and workload.

There are some awesome homeschool charter schools in CA, that provide many choices of curriculum and on-site classes at no cost. Definitely worth looking into for Plan B.

Let me get this straight: They are making him sit writing for an hour without a break? That is crazy. That should have been accommodated for at the get-go. I homeschool 4th grade and I would not try that even in my home without the sensory issues of school.

Non-compliance can result from being overwhelmed with things that are just too hard. Depending on a child's thought process, it is better to fail because you are not trying than to fail b/c you can't do something. Who wants to admit to not being able to do something? It makes them feel stupid or like a failure. You and I both know that not sitting still does not equal being stupid or a failure, but when the school sets that up as a minimum bar? For an hour? No. Just no.

As far as independent study goes, the issue with that is if you fail to get the results they need, the blame falls on you. Then they will either give you "advice" you may not agree with or make you put him back in so they can monitor compliance. I was tempted to ask for that and was weighing it i my mind, before the whole environment got too toxic to even consider. I don't think they ever would have done it anyway b/c they clearly wanted to be in charge.

I wonder if you could go in and observe, and then make suggestions about how to handle him. Observe the aide, especially, to see if she is doing anything at all to keep him on task and/or give fidget breaks.

Given his social success, (something we never had) I would really try to get them to change their outlook. My brain is fried right now, and I am not good these days about keeping academic sources of information, but I wonder if some evidence-based academic papers about appropriate accommodations in a mainstream environment might help. It might piss them off if you imply they don't know what the heck they are doing, but you can probably couch it in some kind of "look what I found, let's try it, "bubbly teacher-friendly way that won't piss them off too much.

It's confusing for me because they very frequently solicit my input, advice, ideas... but then they don't actually follow through with any of those ideas, whether about behavior or the format of the work. They will show me worksheets he started but petered out on, and I can look at them and identify why the format didn't work, and why, and how to change them... and then they turn around and give him the exact same type of worksheet, a few days later. Or I will volunteer to do all of the modifications myself, but they never take me up on that. I can only conclude that they simply don't want to have to make any changes, as much as they seem to genuinely want to hear my ideas of things that might work. I really don't get it. If I felt that they secretly didn't WANT it to work, their behavior would make more sense. When they come up with their own ideas, they're usually dumbed-down (like going back to "cut-and-paste" instead of writing.) Which just reinforces my suspicion that they still really aren't seeing who he actually is, what he's capable of, or what he needs, in spite of my trying to make those things clear in as many ways I can.

They are well-meaning, but they seem to need a reliable solution for each situation, like a menu where they can look up "okay he's doing X, so that means we need to do Y," and then the problem goes away. And that doesn't work. You have to be flexible and do what's best in the situation, and be ever willing to adjust. Sometimes that means pushing him. Sometimes it means backing off. Sometimes it means using humor, sometimes logic. You have to be an "Aspie-Whisperer" in a sense, and for that particular kid, who is unique. And if you don't have that ability, maybe it's just not going to work, at least not until he's willing to meet them at least halfway.

I went back to your original post and bolded the things that stuck out at me. The current situation really doesn't sound like it's working very well for your son. He sounds pretty miserable in class to me -- does being happy at recess and having friends at recess balance this out enough to stay? He's very attached to his current friends, and probably to his identity of being part of "Ms. XYZ's class". I wonder what he would say if you asked him if he'd like to try a different kind of school, where he still gets to be part of a class and have friends, but they don't have so many worksheets?

Looking back, we kept my son in a public school situation that wasn't working far too long. His behavior was communicating volumes about how bad it was. (Although to be fair he would occasionally plaintively ask, "Could I be homeschooled?") He tells me now that at some point he consciously decided to act so badly that either the school would kick him out or we would pull him out. It took a boycott by the other parents to get us to pull that trigger. If we'd had a better Plan B lined up maybe we could have avoided a lot of misery.

That's the big question I guess. And I don't know the answer to it. I have actually asked him that pretty much in those terms-- do those good things balance out the misery of the worksheets? And the other things that cause frustration? And right now, his answer seems to be, "yes," that it's enough... the good things are enough that he wants to keep trying there. But the problem with that is he has never had any other formal school experience to weight against it. This is all he knows.



I think in my son's case, his behavior is communicating that, 1) he hates worksheets, and, 2) he has a long way to go in learning how to deal with relatively minor and routine frustrations in life. I'm not sure it's communicating that he's actually miserable at school, though I'm sure it seems that way to staff. But the thing is, he has never said that he hates school or doesn't want to go to school. He just hates having to do stuff he doesn't want to do. I don't think he understands why they keep asking him to do stuff that clearly he doesn't want to do. I think a lot of his behavior is an attempt to TEACH them that so that they will STOP. And what he hasn't internalized is that it will NEVER STOP, because that's what school is-- (at least a lot of it is, until you get to college)-- having to do stuff that you don't necessarily WANT to do, but which is (sometimes) for your own good, for your educational benefit... and if not for that, then at least for some social benefit, like learning how to get along with others and discipline yourself to tolerate things that aren't completely within your control.

It's pretty striking that he can be so miserable when they are trying to get him to do a worksheet, but if he puts up enough of a fuss, and he's removed, like to take a walk with his aide or even go sit in the office, he perks right up and is very cheerful, sociable, talkative, content. He really enjoys socializing and is willing to be "in trouble" if that means not having to do the worksheet. Walking around and/or talking to adults is more interesting. So it's not like he's crying and asking to go home, begging them to call me to come get him. In fact when they suggest calling me (when he's in shut-down) he usually indicates that he does NOT want that. He just wants the worksheet to go away.

You know, it occurs to me that the common factor in all of his areas of difficulty & frustration lately is the need for CONTROL.

When I first posted the beginning of this thread, I was feeling really down & worried (more than usual) because not only were the complaints from school increasing again, but he was also having more trouble than usual even in preferred activities *outside* of school.. that's what was especially troubling to me... that I was seeing him crumble across all environments. The low tolerance to frustration, the perfectionism. Now when I look at it, (and think of it in terms of "what is the behavior really communicating), it seems obvious that he is grasping, everywhere, for a feeling of control over whatever he is doing. Dictatorial control.

In his piano lesson, he was melting down because he wanted to be able to decide which songs to play, and when, and how. He didn't want to take any instruction, and he was having tantrums and refusals when his teacher would attempt to "teach" rather than be a passive audience for whatever HE wanted to do. I tried to explain to him that it was okay to want to play piano for people, but that wasn't the same thing as a lesson. It got bad enough that I decided to take a break from lessons because he wasn't able to be respectful to his teacher and he seemed to be so frustrated by the entire process, which was a change from how he felt last year in his piano lesson.

Same thing with chess club-- he was melting down and having tantrums if he couldn't have everything HIS way-- he wanted to be able to choose exactly who he was paired up with, and would sulk and cry if he wasn't able to finish a game before it was time to break into groups for instruction. He got to the point where he was sulking & crying over just about anything that didn't go exactly the way he wanted it to. Again, I tried to explain to him that that was part of being in a group-- a club-- it means having to compromise and do what's best for the group, not necessarily what YOU always want. Again, this was a change from last year, when he was able to participate in chess club and had a good time. These are not activities I was forcing him to participate in-- he *wanted* to be in these activities. And it really saddened me that his issues were interfering with his ability to have fun in even his extracurricular activities.

So with school, too, I see that he is wanting to control everything... if he could, he would want to decide what he studies, and when, and how. He's still trying to control it, by refusing to participate in anything that he doesn't consider fun or interesting. It's not even about "easy" or "hard" because I've seen some of the work he's refused to do and much of it is very easy work for him. He just doesn't want to do it. (Yes, there is other stuff that is truly challenging, but I think at school it's hard for them to tell the difference, and so they have to just assume that all of it is "overwhelming" for him.)

Without even linking all this evidence of "control" needs together, I think I instinctively interpreted his behavior as a sign of stress, and so I reluctantly pulled back on his extracurriculars (since at least that's something we could reduce immediately) and I think that's been a good thing for now (although it bums me out that I have to take away THAT stuff... and I've even talked to him about this-- that, by contrast, SCHOOL is not optional, and it's harder for me to adjust that stuff... that we have choices of HOW to educate him, but that education itself is not an option, and that not all of it will be "fun" for him, and that's just the way it is..) I think he mistakenly believes that as adults, we all have the power to just "change the rules" and that we're just torturing him needlessly with this "not fun" work. It's like if I tell him he can't play computer until he gets his homework done, and a part of him wants to argue, "why not? you could change the rules if you *wanted* to..." and then I have to explain to him that, yes, that's true, but then I'd be totally failing him as a parent. And that, similarly, the teachers would be failing him if they just gave up and let him do whatever he wanted at school instead of trying to teach him. But he's too young to appreciate the truth or wisdom of that.

How much discipline do you apply when he refuses to do any work even at home while sulking for hours?
Have you tried increasing penalties for this kind of behavior?
Of course he will not understand the reasons for people making him do what he doesn't want to do, but some kind of more negative consequences might help to get him to do a single thing promptly when requested by a teacher at school.
Maybe just a 1-minute task in writing.

I would stay away from penalties right now. I suspect the school and you think you've tried that and that what seem to be rewards and what seem to be penalties to adults may not actually seem that way to him. Because if the rewards and penalties are rewarding and penalizing and if the child can provide the behavior he would. Therefore trying to penalize without a good understanding why he does not do work you think he can do might put things in a downward spiral.

BTW, if the problems are rooted in control more than motivation, then it's even more important to make him start giving up some control and meet some demand of others.

Rewards and penalties are about changing motivation. If something else is getting in the way, all the motivation in the world won't change the behavior.

He feels a large need for control. WHY? What is it about the work or the setting that feels out of control to him? What is hard for him (and it's likely not the actual concepts on the worksheet) about doing the work they are asking? Are there some worksheets or learning activities he does willingly and with no complaint?

One thing to try is give him a paragraph to copy, and see how much he can write in one minute. I've seen proposed standards that say 2nd graders should be able to write 20-25 letters/min (or 6-7 words per minute). Also ask him to write his own sentences for one minute. I'm having trouble finding it again for 2nd graders, but 4th graders were about 4-5 words/min. If he's significantly slower than this, the mechanics of writing are a large part of the problem.

There are other things to look at, too -- too many problems on the page, not enough sensory breaks, not enough control over when to take breaks...

How could the teacher and aide arrange to give him more control?

I disagree that punishments can't change a need for control, because a child may start letting go of the control if they want to avoid the punishment. They might discover that it is easier to let go of some control at some times than to be punished. Need for control is one of those things that intensifies if you let it, so it's better to go against it with external pressure. This kid will probably have control problems all his life, but they don't need to be at a constant high level that prevents functioning, as it is doing so now.

In the OP's posts, I noticed that they mentioned trying to explain to the child why they need to do this or that, which suggest that perhaps punishments have not been applied enough. Children of this age understand punishments better than explanations, so a harder approach might work better.

We've tried all kinds of punishments, including, at one point, stripping his room entirely, leaving only his bed & sheets and his empty desk and a lamp. Even then, he held out for 3 days before he started to do what was being asked of him. (This is how I know that he would rather pick at carpet lint than do worksheets, even if doing the worksheets means immediately getting some privileges back.)

I have been reading some other kids' thoughts on the General Autism board, regarding being perceived as "spoiled" etc... it's interesting to see what kids say now that they are older and can look back and try to interpret their own behavior. There are some kids who sound an awful lot like my son, in that pretty much no amount of "taking stuff away" is going to have any effect. It doesn't really connect to what is actually going on, at least not in a meaningful enough way.

There are some kids who actually say that the only kind of discipline that really worked for them was more corporal-- being spanked, or yelled at. ... because that actually "got through" in a very immediate manner and was unpleasant enough that they wanted the unpleasantness to stop. Whereas apparently the more psychological punishments (taking away privileges) are pretty tolerable. I'm not willing to go to the point of physical punishment or intentional yelling, but I have started to let him know that his behavior has an effect on the rest of the family. Not to make him feel like he's a "bad kid", but to let him know that it's not all about him, all the time, which is sort of how he acts most of the time. It's not that he's a jerk or a narcissist... he's just got the self-centeredness that would be developmentally normal for a much younger kid.

I was just talking to a friend who has sort of "been there done that" with her son, although with ADHD rather than ASD, and she said this, which I thought was really well stated:

"""There is a huge difference in how to deal with a person not doing what you want them to, depending on whether the problem is can't or won't. If it's can't, then the solution is different or better training. If it's won't, the solution is different or better motivation. It's a big contributor to corporate morale problems. If you train someone how to do something he thinks is pointless, you just bore him and reinforce that it's pointless. If you try to motivate someone to do something he can't, then you make him feel stupid and frustrated."""

Carpenter Bee, my son has that type of temperament, and we do not hit, but I have yelled in frustration, and it only works in one case, for us. If it is a "simple" matter of not understanding something is important, and it is something he can comply with. If it is too important to him, and he cannot comply, it sets him off more.

We are really trying to get past the communication barriers to try Plan B (Ross Green's program) We are also working on modulating what is an acceptable compromise b/c there are things that don't seem to have a nice sweet spot of making everyne happy.

I think there is something to be said for society's tradition of physical punishment in these cases of children who can't respond to anything else.

The problem may get better with age and maturity, or it may continue as it is, which means that it worse as the child gets older and more behind in all other things. I have read many people say in general autism board that they were so smart as kids but never applied themselves in school and didn't turn in homework but just showed up to get high scores on the test, and many of them suffered long-term consequences of this, not getting the education and using their smarts in a way that can offset their social deficits in adulthood, and therefore not having skills or credentials for anything other than low-level jobs, which are not suited to autistic people due to social demands, sensory overload, etc etc etc. So if a child is smart and able, then it is really critical to do anything possible to avoid the above. Many other autistic adults will advise a soft approach of letting the child do what is comfortable and not pushing outside the comfort zone, but I disagree with those viewpoints and don't want to contribute to disability payments for people who could have done more to better themselves instead of depending on others.

Having high standards doesn't require physical punishment and it can be extremely harmful.

Last edited by Waterfalls on 07 Oct 2014, 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yes, I completely relate to that. If he's able to comply, he's always pretty ready to do whatever I need him to do to make things better for himself, or me or the family. But if it's something that's actually difficult for him (for whatever reason, even if that reason might seem totally wack-a-doo to some outsider who doesn't understand things like NEEDING to impose order on a disorderly world), then, yeah, it only gets worse by my being mad at him on top of whatever he's already feeling.

He's so smart and logical that also sometimes I think I forget that he's still A LITTLE KID. He's not an adult Spock who can break things down into pure logic and push his emotions to the side, as a conscious choice. He gets upset, burned out, overwhelmed with everyone NEEDING so much from him.

I feel like the discussion about punishment should be a new thread... it's certainly deeply involved in the topic at hand (motivation or the lack thereof) but I can see that there are some pretty strong opinions about it and this thread could go off on a pretty heated tangent. I would recommend doing search on the forum for "spoiled" and read what other kids have said about being accused of that by parents or others... when I first did a search, I assumed I'd find discussions on the parents' forum (because I find myself wondering about that a lot.. where do you draw the line between "spoiled" and "out of the kid's control"?) I'm amazed by how even I, after all this time with my son, can't even tell the difference sometimes... because he is, certainly, "spoiled" to some extent... all of my children are... but it's more complicated than that. ... But anyway, when I did the search, what came up were not the parents, but rather KIDS (now young adults or adults) talking about how they resented being called spoiled when they were growing up.. and how they felt misunderstood. (There were a few who did say "oh but I was totally a spoiled brat," or whatever... which made me laugh...)

Anyway, I think it's an important discussion. At least it's important to me..... I'm pretty much in the thick of all that right now....