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I lost my gf be I am not convert in to chrichanity.

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Fnord
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03 Jun 2019, 8:32 am

Antrax wrote:
... "Christians" can choose which passages to emphasize and justify their behavior...
Exactly. For those people, behavior comes first, then the "justification". For real Christians, the justification has already occurred, and their actions follow from that.


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TwilightPrincess
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03 Jun 2019, 8:43 am

Fnord wrote:
Antrax wrote:
... "Christians" can choose which passages to emphasize and justify their behavior...
Exactly. For those people, behavior comes first, then the "justification". For real Christians, the justification has already occurred, and their actions follow from that.


I think it’s really easy to get caught up in the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law. (2 Corinthians 3:6)

I haven’t often seen people approach life from a true place of spirituality. I think some people have more of a genetic predisposition to this than others. Perhaps it’s an ability to see things from an abstract point of view.

People can choose to follow specific rules but perhaps only a few can be led by the spirit (what I would call an internal moral compass).

I don’t think that manipulators who use religion to their advantage are ever spiritual. They are approaching the system purely to see what they can get out of it.


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Fnord
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03 Jun 2019, 8:46 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
... I don’t think that manipulators who use religion to their advantage are ever spiritual. They are approaching the system purely to see what they can get out of it.
And they call themselves "Christians" just to make the rest of us look worse than we really are.


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TwilightPrincess
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03 Jun 2019, 8:59 am

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
... I don’t think that manipulators who use religion to their advantage are ever spiritual. They are approaching the system purely to see what they can get out of it.
And they call themselves "Christians" just to make the rest of us look worse than we really are.


Muslims feel the same way (if not worse) about their extremists.

I just think that our approach to religion needs to continue to evolve and good old common sense and rationalism should never be entirely discarded. It is concerning that various extremist religious groups are on the rise, though.

We need better laws to protect people. For example, clergy should be considered mandated reporters in every state. So much trouble has come about from this travesty alone!

My brother and I often speak of the positives that can come from liberal Christianity. Being able to discuss morality and ethics without feeling that we have to strictly adhere to the entire “law” can be quite liberating.


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Fnord
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03 Jun 2019, 9:10 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
... For example, clergy should be considered mandated reporters in every state...
They are. However, "Mandated by Law" does not lead to automatic compliance. The Old Order of "What happens in church stays in church" is still in effect. Churches need to be more transparent. On the other hand, people should accept the transparency as real, and not insist on uncovering something simply to justify their own misplaced sense of moral superiority.
Twilightprincess wrote:
My brother and I often speak of the positives that can come from liberal Christianity. Being able to discuss morality and ethics without feeling that we have to strictly adhere to the entire “law” can be quite liberating.
Indeed. My church is slowly coming around to a more inclusive attitude toward queerfolk. It already sponsors women in seminaries to become pastors, and people of color form the majority in our congregation. In twos and threes, we discuss the changes privately. We also discuss them in congregational meetings. Some are adamantly resistant to change, but they're mostly of the 70+ crowd; some are more open to change, and they're still around; but those who demanded change have mostly left already because change was coming too slow for them.


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TwilightPrincess
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03 Jun 2019, 9:13 am

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
... For example, clergy should be considered mandated reporters in every state...
They are. However, "Mandated by Law" does not lead to automatic compliance. The Old Order of "What happens in church stays in church" is still in effect. Churches need to be more transparent. On the other hand, people should accept the transparency as real, and not insist on uncovering something simply to justify their own misplaced sense of moral superiority.
Twilightprincess wrote:
My brother and I often speak of the positives that can come from liberal Christianity. Being able to discuss morality and ethics without feeling that we have to strictly adhere to the entire “law” can be quite liberating.
Indeed. My church is slowly coming around to a more inclusive attitude toward queerfolk. It already sponsors women in seminaries to become pastors, and people of color form the majority in our congregation. In twos and threes, we discuss the changes privately. We also discuss them in congregational meetings. Some are adamantly resistant to change, but they're mostly of the 70+ crowd; some are more open to change, and they're still around; but those who demanded change have mostly left already because change was coming too slow for them.


They are not mandated reporters in every state.

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/clergymandated.pdf


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TwilightPrincess
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03 Jun 2019, 9:21 am

With “clergy-penitent privilege,” some states allow clergy not to report cases of abuse they’ve heard in confession. Lots of priests try to avoid lawsuits due to this.

Mandated reporting when it comes to clergy is quite complex.


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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 03 Jun 2019, 9:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

TwilightPrincess
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03 Jun 2019, 9:22 am

Obviously, this wouldn’t take care of the problem completely, but it would be a move in the right direction.


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Fnord
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03 Jun 2019, 9:28 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
They are not mandated reporters in every state...
The PDF you cited is four years old, and the website itself admits that the wording of the text is open to interpretation.

However, here in California, the law requires mandatory reporting of known or suspected:

• Child abuse and neglect
• Elder and dependent adult abuse
• Domestic violence

Mandated Reporters are legally responsible to report the incident themselves, but they are not required to investigate any known or suspected case of abuse. Mandated Reporters Include:

• Child care custodians
• Clergy
• Commercial Commercial film & photographic photographic print processors
• Elder or dependent adult custodians
• Employee of a protective service or law enforcement agency
• Marriage and Family Counselors
• Social Workers
• Teachers
• And all State-Licensed healthcare professionals, including but not limited to:
– ALL employees in a long‐term health facility
– EMTs, paramedics, medical examiners
– Mental Health Professionals
– Nurses
– Physicians

Failure to Report is a Crime: Everyone who has knowledge of abuse should report; however, these designated professionals are required by law to report. Failure to report is a misdemeanor crime punishable by up to six (6) months in jail and/or up to a $1000 fine.


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TwilightPrincess
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03 Jun 2019, 9:32 am

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
They are not mandated reporters in every state...
The PDF you cited is four years old, and the website itself admits that the wording of the text is open to interpretation.

However, here in California, the law requires mandatory reporting of known or suspected:

• Child abuse and neglect
• Elder and dependent adult abuse
• Domestic violence

Mandated Reporters are legally responsible to report the incident themselves, but they are not required to investigate any known or suspected case of abuse. Mandated Reporters Include:

• Child care custodians
• Clergy
• Commercial Commercial film & photographic photographic print processors
• Elder or dependent adult custodians
• Employee of a protective service or law enforcement agency
• Marriage and Family Counselors
• Social Workers
• Teachers
• And all State-Licensed healthcare professionals, including but not limited to:
– Physicians
– Nurses
– Mental Health Professionals
– EMTs, paramedics, medical examiners
– ALL employees in a long‐term health facility

Failure to Report is a Crime: Everyone who has knowledge of abuse should report; however, these designated professionals are required by law to report. Failure to report is a misdemeanor crime punishable by up to six (6) months in jail and/or up to a $1000 fine.


What about the “clergy-penitent privilege?”

I was actually watching a documentary on child abuse coverups yesterday that was pretty recent which included a push for changing laws and policies.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I find the wording of some laws a little ambiguous.


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TwilightPrincess
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03 Jun 2019, 9:36 am

https://www.google.com/amp/www.pewtrust ... es%3famp=1


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TwilightPrincess
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03 Jun 2019, 9:42 am

As usual, I’ve completely derailed the thread. Oops!

Giving an ultimatum like this is extremely toxic behavior. Be thankful, OP, that you didn’t marry her.


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Fnord
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03 Jun 2019, 9:47 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
What about the “clergy-penitent privilege?”
In California, that "privilege" becomes null and void when a case of abuse or even potential abuse is suspected.

Sure, talk about the problems you're having with your spouse, but if the Pastor notices a bruise on your arm (the one you got from carrying heavy boxes at work), you can expect your spouse to be hauled in and severely questioned under the presumptions that (1) he/she caused the bruise, and (2) you are covering up for him/her out of fear and/or misplaced love.


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TwilightPrincess
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03 Jun 2019, 10:57 am

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
What about the “clergy-penitent privilege?”
In California, that "privilege" becomes null and void when a case of abuse or even potential abuse is suspected.

Sure, talk about the problems you're having with your spouse, but if the Pastor notices a bruise on your arm (the one you got from carrying heavy boxes at work), you can expect your spouse to be hauled in and severely questioned under the presumptions that (1) he/she caused the bruise, and (2) you are covering up for him/her out of fear and/or misplaced love.


I’m thinking that there needs to be better laws in states that don’t have that same level of enlightenment.

I was just trying to think of ways that governments could try to curb abusive behavior in various religions without unduly inhibiting religious freedom.

There’s no real answer or solution, I suppose.

Excommunicating or disfellowshipping a person who leaves an abusive marriage and gets into a healthy relationship and marries someone else isn’t a very nice thing to do, but there’s no way of making it illegal.


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Fnord
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03 Jun 2019, 11:16 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
... Excommunicating or disfellowshipping a person who leaves an abusive marriage and gets into a healthy relationship and marries someone else isn’t a very nice thing to do, but there’s no way of making it illegal.
Should it be made illegal? Think about it ... if a social club cancelled your membership for divorcing an abusive spouse, would membership that social club really be worth keeping?


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TwilightPrincess
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03 Jun 2019, 11:25 am

Fnord wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
... Excommunicating or disfellowshipping a person who leaves an abusive marriage and gets into a healthy relationship and marries someone else isn’t a very nice thing to do, but there’s no way of making it illegal.
Should it be made illegal? Think about it ... if a social club cancelled your membership for divorcing an abusive spouse, would membership that social club really be worth keeping?


It wouldn’t be, but if all you know is that social club and are led to believe that it’s the best and only “true” social club in the world (lol), you might not have the insight to realize it, especially if all your family and friends that are in it won’t talk to you if you leave.

I’m not saying that it should be made illegal.

I was just thinking out loud about the problem you posed concerning people having a negative attitude towards all Christians because of abusive behaviors practiced by extremists.


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