At first there was nothing..

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calandale
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31 Aug 2007, 7:34 am

Man omelettes.

undefineable
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31 Aug 2007, 1:48 pm

//this black hole was all that existed before//

Why was it there? Maybe there's no reason?

Witt
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31 Aug 2007, 2:33 pm

The_Chosen_One wrote:

God creates man - man creates god.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Why God needs to be a creator?

Applying laws of causality on God,is bad thing.
Both chicken and egg are individual categorial things.

Laws of causality(cause-consequence)we have discovered on the level of categorial existence,in which we are living.
And then using these examples (chicken/egg) on supreme and eternal being is simply wrong.

Same as using Newtonian mechanics on Quantum particles.
It simply does not work,and we have to use another approach (Quantum mechanics).

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The_Chosen_One
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31 Aug 2007, 8:03 pm

Newtonian mechanics and Quantum physics are two different fields, and thus cannot be applied to each other; even though they are man-made theories. The chicken/egg analogy is as relevant the god-concept, because neither question can be answered or proven. Cognitive thought process can only create, and man being the only one with such a process, is the creator. Without man, there is no god.

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PLA
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01 Sep 2007, 4:28 am

"Which came first?" Dood, chickens and eggs are part of a cycle... Well, I might be stupid, but I don't think there'd be a "first" as such. That would of course depend on the definitions you'd go with for argument's sake, but still. . .

Why not go with something like the Spinoza view of Deus sive Natura? In many cases metaphysical disscusions derange into the realm of mere rival terminologies, anyway.

I'd say that there was never "Nothing", but I can't imagine eternities very well, so hey, a guy's gotta work with what he has!

You'll excuse my inane ramblings, I'm sure. I have terrific difficulties in the act of focusing my thoughts properly. Or rather, with the act of introducing one focused thought to another.

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sigholdaccountlost
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01 Sep 2007, 4:57 am

undefineable wrote:

OK Scientists, has anyone come up with a plausible explaination for where the Universe came from?

OK religious people. Has anyone came up with a plausible explanation for where the Almighty came from?

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01 Sep 2007, 4:58 am

Witt wrote:

At first there was nothing...

Its impossible that nothing existed first,simply because nothing does not exist.
And nothing cannot became something,since that is logical contradiction.
Only being exists,non being does not exist....ergo there is only being (existence).

Things that exist cannot be created from non-existence,and cannot be turned into non-existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides

Quote:

For never shall this prevail, that things that are not are.

Quote:

Thinking and the thought that it is are the same; for you will not find thought apart from what is, in relation to which it is uttered.

For thought and being are the same.

It is necessary to speak and to think what is; for being is, but nothing is not.

Helplessness guides the wandering thought in their breasts; they are carried along deaf and blind alike, dazed, beasts without judgment, convinced that to be and not to be are the same and not the same, and that the road of all things is a backward-turning one.

Quote:

How could what is perish? How could it have come to be? For if it came into being, it is not; nor is it if ever it is going to be. Thus coming into being is extinguished, and destruction unknown.

Nor was [it] once, nor will [it] be, since [it] is, now, all together, / One, continuous; for what coming-to-be of it will you seek? / In what way, whence, did [it] grow? Neither from what-is-not shall I allow / You to say or think; for it is not to be said or thought / That [it] is not. And what need could have impelled it to grow / Later or sooner, if it began from nothing? Thus [it] must either be completely or not at all.

[What exists] is now, all at once, one and continuous... Nor is it divisible, since it is all alike; nor is there any more or less of it in one place which might prevent it from holding together, but all is full of what is.

And it is all one to me / Where I am to begin; for I shall return there again.

Then there'd have to be an afterlife for that argument to work, wouldn't there?

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sigholdaccountlost
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01 Sep 2007, 5:01 am

The_Chosen_One wrote:

God creates man - man creates god.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The egg. DUH.

Dinosaurs were laying eggs looooong before chickens evolved.

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01 Sep 2007, 5:15 am

Ah, but dinosaurs came from eggs too..... it's meant to be a rhetorical question, and one which cannot be answered. Same as the whole god thing.

Maybe these Christians should get off those magic mushrooms....

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sigholdaccountlost
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01 Sep 2007, 8:08 am

The_Chosen_One wrote:

Actually, it can be answered, if you go back far enough you'll see that it's the egg.

Regardless of whether it should be, it isn't.

Maybe the God question can be answered - just not yet.

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undefineable
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01 Sep 2007, 8:54 am

Well, since I feel there can't be a personal God, that one's answered for me. What's harder is answering the question of why there is anything atall rather than nothing. I'm not convinced quantum mechanics can answer that, though as I'm not an expert I'll hold fire_

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01 Sep 2007, 9:00 am

The_Chosen_One wrote:

Newtonian mechanics and Quantum physics are two different fields, and thus cannot be applied to each other;

Yes.

The_Chosen_One wrote:

The chicken/egg analogy is as relevant the god-concept, because neither question can be answered or proven.

No,its not relevant,because this analogy has its roots in limited earthly existence,and this example is created from observations of individual beings in nature (animals).Such analogies cannot be applied on questions of infinite or absolute.
As a result you get logical contradiction.
Same as all causal analogies.
Read David Hume and Kant,and you will understand what I'm talking about.

The_Chosen_One wrote:

Cognitive thought process can only create, and man being the only one with such a process, is the creator.

We don't know that.Again you project limited human experience to the questions of infinite.

sigholdaccountlost wrote:

Then there'd have to be an afterlife for that argument to work, wouldn't there?

Not necessary 'afterlife' but certainly 'after-existence'.

sigholdaccountlost wrote:

Actually, it can be answered, if you go back far enough you'll see that it's the egg.

But who has laid that egg in the first place?

This is paradox in which cause and consequence are in circle.

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01 Sep 2007, 12:56 pm

The_Chosen_One wrote:

As I said, hydrogen inrush caused by atomic reaction roughly 17,000,000,000 year ago. Easy. I'll accept that.

input = output

You don't get something from nothing according to physics. People like hawking say the laws of physics didn't exist till after the big bang. More like big bologna I think.

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01 Sep 2007, 3:48 pm

Witt wrote:

The_Chosen_One wrote:

Newtonian mechanics and Quantum physics are two different fields, and thus cannot be applied to each other;

Yes.

The_Chosen_One wrote:

The chicken/egg analogy is as relevant the god-concept, because neither question can be answered or proven.

The_Chosen_One wrote:

Cognitive thought process can only create, and man being the only one with such a process, is the creator.

We don't know that.Again you project limited human experience to the questions of infinite.

sigholdaccountlost wrote:

Then there'd have to be an afterlife for that argument to work, wouldn't there?

Not necessary 'afterlife' but certainly 'after-existence'.

sigholdaccountlost wrote:

Actually, it can be answered, if you go back far enough you'll see that it's the egg.

But who has laid that egg in the first place?

This is paradox in which cause and consequence are in circle.

What exactly do you feel the difference is between after-life and after-existence?

Who said the egg needed to be laid? Where do you think you came from?

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01 Sep 2007, 4:25 pm

PrupQon wrote:

AND THEN IT EXPLODED!

I cant believe people actually believe in the big bang.
I would believe in god before the big bang anyday.

Fine now explain to me why both couldn't be. On the first day? Whos first day? His? I don't think so. Time is our concept, it's just natures way of keeping everything from happening at once. Freakin cosmic ain't it.

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01 Sep 2007, 4:33 pm

Everything is happening at once, it just keeps on going. I read in Feynman's Lectures On Physics that the universe as a whole, according to relativity theory, moves through time at the speed of light.

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