Israel/Palestine -- how could a one-state solution work?

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Fnord
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19 Oct 2023, 7:28 pm

Are the "Rights of Return" part of International Law, or are they merely assumed by a few uninformed members?

Either way, it poses a conundrum.

• Abandon your property and it becomes free for the taking.

• Stay on your property and your life becomes free for the taking.

Who is willing to die for a water-less patch of sand in the desert?

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19 Oct 2023, 8:43 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

The Lebanon model has proven its failure, the Christians are itching for a Christian state because they no longer want to live according to Hezbollah's foreign policy; and I think soon they may fight for it. They are very loudly threatening that if Hezbollah drags Lebanon to war, then they are going for division, that includes Hezbollah's biggest Christian ally.

It looks to me like the biggest problems here, for Lebanon, are spillover from the Israel/Palestine conflict, plus foreign intervention in the form of Iranian funding of Hezbollah. Do you think the Lebanon model could have worked better without these pressures from outside?

If so, then perhaps, if someone, somehow, were to manage to calm things down in Israel/Palestine and come up with a good solution that includes repatriating at least most of the remaining Palestinian refugees, then the situation in Lebanon would calm down too?

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Quote:

Partition, Federalism, and Decentralization

Christian parties and leaders in Lebanon have been getting increasingly vocal about the need to abandon the current central government model in favor of decentralized models that go by various names and formulas to address the country’s protracted political deadlock. Even though the 1975-1990 civil war affected all the Lebanese people, and the country’s political, economic, and security woes impacted each one of them regardless of their sects, Christian parties have been particularly proposing decentralization, federalism, divisionism, and such ideas under any other name.

https://epc.ae/en/details/featured/the- ... federalism

This sounds to me like most of them don't want to split up totally, but just to become less centralized.

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Mona Pereth
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19 Oct 2023, 8:57 pm

Fnord wrote:

Are the "Rights of Return" part of International Law, or are they merely assumed by a few uninformed members?

The "Law of Return" for Jews is a right guaranteed by the current State of Israel.

The Palestinian right of return has been voted for in various U.N. General Assembly resolutions but has never been enforced.

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19 Oct 2023, 9:39 pm

MaxE wrote:

It might help to ask yourself who would convince the parties involved to cooperate and how.

I don't know what percentage of Palestinians would agree with my idea. Our one staunch Palestinian sympathizer here on WP seems to like my idea. Of course, Hamas probably wouldn't like it. But I suspect that many Palestinians would consider it to be a great improvement over the status quo.

My hunch is that it would be harder to sell this idea to most Israeli Jews than to most Palestinians. But I don't really know. I haven't talked to very many Palestinians, nor to very many Israeli Jews. Have you?

MaxE wrote:

As I see it, those parties are less inclined than ever to even be in the same room with each other let alone get together to work out some sort of coexistence arrangement. Most Palestinians, from things I've seen in the past (e.g. what I can recall as being their primary school curriculum) will never accept a large Jewish presence in their land. They expect to return to everything that existed before the founding of Rishon Le Tzion.

I wonder how many Palestinians seriously expect this. The Israeli Jews are obviously not going anywhere.

MaxE wrote:

If they do negotiate some sort of land-sharing agreement, it will probably be in the belief that it's a first step in the direction of full return.

Even if they believe that, I suspect that if a good one-state solution improves their lives sufficiently, most Palestinians would just want to get on with their lives.

MaxE wrote:

Plus there are powerful actors who don't want peace in that region e.g Iran and Russia.

Yep, that's a big problem.

MaxE wrote:

To me, the One State and Two State solutions are just thought experiments.

The Two State solution has been official international treaty policy for a long time, according to the Oslo accords, which were signed thirty years ago. The Israeli government has just never gotten around to allowing it to be implemented, beyond the initial phases of the "peace process," and I think it's now clear that they never will. The big sticking point, at least for Israeli moderates (as far as I can tell), is that Israel would have to give up the militarily-strategic highlands, which would be suicidal for Israel as a state.

So I think it's time to scrap the two-state solution and start thinking seriously about what kind of one-state solution might be workable.

Fnord
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19 Oct 2023, 9:51 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Are the "Rights of Return" part of International Law, or are they merely assumed by a few uninformed members?

The "Law of Return" for Jews is a right guaranteed by the current State of Israel. The Palestinian right of return has been voted for in various U.N. General Assembly resolutions but has never been enforced.

Well, there you go! Great idea (for some), but not enforceable (by any).

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19 Oct 2023, 10:15 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

MaxE wrote:

It might help to ask yourself who would convince the parties involved to cooperate and how.

That we don’t know is accurate and I believe your hunch of Israeli Jews being hostile is right. IMHO many Muslims in the region view Israel as the latest crusaders. The use of “decolonization” that has sprung up lately is informative. The theory is the Jews, like the British and French colonizers before them will have enough and go home. As previously mentioned Israeli Jews do not think there is a home to go to because Israel is their home. I got the decolonization theory from various Israeli journalists. I have not seen anybody else posit the theory that Muslims in the area view Israel as the ninth crusade but it is a theory I have held for decades.

If they view it that way their are no solutions other kicking the Jews out or killing all of them. Some that view it that way would agree to temporary compromises as acknowledging practical realities, but the end goal is unchanged.

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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 19 Oct 2023, 10:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mona Pereth
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19 Oct 2023, 10:24 pm

Fnord wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Are the "Rights of Return" part of International Law, or are they merely assumed by a few uninformed members?

The "Law of Return" for Jews is a right guaranteed by the current State of Israel. The Palestinian right of return has been voted for in various U.N. General Assembly resolutions but has never been enforced.

Well, there you go! Great idea (for some), but not enforceable (by any).

Israel has had no problem enforcing its own "Law of Return," for Jews, for a very long time.

The unenforceable sticking point has been the Palestinian Right of Return, which Israel has long opposed due to fear of being outnumbered.

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19 Oct 2023, 11:15 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Are the "Rights of Return" part of International Law, or are they merely assumed by a few uninformed members?

The "Law of Return" for Jews is a right guaranteed by the current State of Israel. The Palestinian right of return has been voted for in various U.N. General Assembly resolutions but has never been enforced.

Well, there you go! Great idea (for some), but not enforceable (by any).

The unenforceable sticking point has been the Palestinian Right of Return, which Israel has long opposed due to fear of being outnumbered.

So? They do not have to enact the laws YOU want them to enact. Israel is a sovereign nation, while Hamas is a mere terrorist group.

Edited on advice of The_face_of_Boo.

Last edited by Fnord on 19 Oct 2023, 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The_Face_of_Boo
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19 Oct 2023, 11:52 pm

^ That’s a personal attack at her as there’s nothing in what she said can be construed as siding with terrorists. Learn to read.

Mona Pereth
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20 Oct 2023, 12:14 am

Fnord wrote:

So? They do not have to enact the laws YOU want them to enact.

Of course not, but I have the right to express my opinions about the policies of any government. So does everyone else here.

Fnord wrote:

Israel is a sovereign nation, while Hamas is a mere terrorist group.

Hamas is far from the only entity that has advocated a Palestinian right of return. As I pointed out earlier (with links), this has been voted on by the U.N. General Assembly.

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20 Oct 2023, 12:15 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:

The use of “decolonization” that has sprung up lately is informative. The theory is the Jews, like the British and French colonizers before them will have enough and go home.

Googling "Israel decolonization," I found The path to peace in Israel-Palestine is through decolonisation: "Only the formation of a single decolonised state encompassing the entire territory of historical Palestine can put an end to Israel’s colonial ambitions." by M Muhannad Ayyash, Al Jazeera, 17 Feb 2021. He advocates NOT that the Jews should all go away, but rather a state "where all citizens enjoy equal rights and freedoms regardless of their ethnic and religious backgrounds."

I also found a page advertising a book titled Decolonizing Israel, Liberating Palestine: Zionism, Settler Colonialism, and the Case for One Democratic State by Jeff Halper, described as follows:

Quote:

Jeff Halper argues that the only way out of a colonial situation is decolonization: the dismantling of Zionist structures of domination and control and their replacement by a single democratic state, in which Palestinians and Israeli Jews forge a new civil society and a shared political community.

I also found On Bi-national Decolonisation in Israel/Palestine by Bashir Bashir and Rachel Busbridge, April 10th, 2018. I found this page a bit confusing; it's not clear to me exactly what these authors are advocating. But it clearly isn't advocating expulsion of Jews.

The Hamas Charter does say its goal is "to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." But Hamas doesn't represent the various apparently much more moderate folks who talk about "decolonization."

ASPartOfMe wrote:

As previously mentioned Israeli Jews do not think there is a home to go to because Israel is their home. I got the decolonization theory from various Israeli journalists.

I question whether these Israeli journalists are accurately representing "decolonization theory," if indeed they are claiming that it entails the expulsion of Jews.

ASPartOfMe wrote:

I have not seen anybody else posit the theory that Muslims in the area view Israel as the ninth crusade but it is a theory I have held for decades.

Maybe you meant "tenth crusade"? "Ninth crusade" refers to an actual medieval historical event.

Anyhow, Zionists have indeed been compared to crusaders; see articles here, here, and here. But I strongly question the conclusion you draw from this, at least regarding people other than the extremists:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

If they view it that way their are no solutions other kicking the Jews out or killing all of them. Some that view it that way would agree to temporary compromises as acknowledging practical realities, but the end goal is unchanged.

I would expect that if the "temporary compromises" improve their lives enough, many of them would calm down and just want to go about their lives.

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20 Oct 2023, 12:33 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

Hamas is far from the only entity . . .

This 'entity' just just showed its support for Palestinian sovereignty by murdering thousands of civilians, many of whom were foreign workers just trying to support their families back home. I knew two of them personally. They were good, peaceful people, working as medical care-givers for Palestinian immigrants. Their remains might never be returned to their families.

Your sympathies are sadly misplaced.

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20 Oct 2023, 12:51 am

Fnord wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

Hamas is far from the only entity . . .

Her sympathies haven't been with Hamas, you just keep trying to imply that they are.

I'm sorry for your loss but it doesn't entitle you to smear people.

You're conflating support for the concept of a Palestinian right of return with supporting Hamas and using that to unfairly smear Mona as somehow sympathetic towards Hamas.

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20 Oct 2023, 1:11 am

Fnord wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

Hamas is far from the only entity . . .

I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your friends.

Let me assure you that I certainly don't support Hamas. See my post here, for example.

My focus in this thread has been to discuss a possible solution that I think might work well for the more moderate folks amongst both Israelis and Palestinians -- NOT the extremists like Hamas, who want things like "to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine."

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20 Oct 2023, 1:23 am

You people will never understand, but I will state it anyway: A solution is impossible as long as Hamas, Hezbollah, and all the other Islamic terrorist groups exist. To even assume that there is a solution to be negotiated with Hamas is to show too much sympathy toward them.

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20 Oct 2023, 1:34 am

I would envision the solution being negotiated primarily between Israel and the Palestinian Authority (not Hamas), most likely under pressure from a U.S. President, if and whenever the U.S.A. starts drifting away from unconditional support for Israel. The latter is likely to happen at some point, insofar as premillenial dispensationalism has started to become less popular among younger evangelical Christians here in the U.S.A.

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