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Two Israeli Innocents Shot in DC

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ASPartOfMe
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02 Jun 2025, 2:58 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I don’t agree that conflating anti zionism and antisemitism is automatically antisemitism.

Was the Colorado event a pro zionist one?

Run for Their Lives Website


Participants are urged to bring flags of countries whose citizens are held hostage so I very sure Israeli flags were flown. One could argue that makes it zionist vigil. IMO that is incorrectly falling into the mentality I discussed earlier.


I wouldn't describe it as pro-Zionist, although I concede some others might.

The hostages are ultimately a separate but adjacent cause to Zionism.


We can put the suspect in the latter camp.
New York Times live updates
Quote:
The man arrested for throwing Molotov cocktails at people attending a march in Boulder, Colo., in support of Israeli hostages in Gaza was charged with a federal hate crime on Monday, according to court documents.

Federal investigators said the man, Mohamed Sabry Soliman, had been planning the attack for a year, and that he had told investigators after his arrest that he wanted to “kill all Zionist people and wished they were all dead,” according to papers filed in federal court. The documents said he threw two Molotov cocktails at marchers but had brought at least 14 other incendiary devices to the event.


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02 Jun 2025, 3:03 pm

That really can't be condoned and kinda reminds me of the attacks on pro-Palestinian protesters at UCLA earlier.


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02 Jun 2025, 3:15 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
That really can't be condoned and kinda reminds me of the attacks on pro-Palestinian protesters at UCLA earlier.

Good analogy they were both done to torch people. In that respect the attack Pennsylvania Governor Shapiro’s home was analogous also.


From now on any weekly vigils that can be construed as zionist need to be staggered as much as possible. Flame retardants should be brought to Jewish and especially zionist events.


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funeralxempire
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02 Jun 2025, 3:21 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
That really can't be condoned and kinda reminds me of the attacks on pro-Palestinian protesters at UCLA earlier.

Good analogy they were both done to torch people. In that respect the attack Pennsylvania Governor Shapiro’s home was analogous also.


From now on any weekly vigils that can be construed as zionist need to be staggered as much as possible. Flame retardants should be brought to Jewish and especially zionist events.


I see that one as slightly different, if only because it targeted a politician with some actual influence, instead of just random protesters who have practically zero influence.


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02 Jun 2025, 4:48 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
The hostages are ultimately a separate but adjacent cause to Zionism.


So perhaps were the victims of the embassy and peaceful protests adjacent but separate to the cause of zionism?
How does a person's birth or upbringing dictate their culpability exactly.

On the flipside do you really honestly consider the perps to be honourable in their intent or justified in their actions. In case you forgot, the victims of Oct 7 were largely young people at a rave (not IDF) many of whom were not even Israeli and included people of Filipino and Nepali backgrounds among the dead.

the egyptian dude who was doing his bit for the Palestinian cause caused severe burns with intent to do you really think he stopped and asked his victims "are you pro-zionist?".

there's a reason why Jewish schools have 24hr security because of people who weaponise anti-zionism because of their anti-semitism.



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02 Jun 2025, 4:51 pm

cyberdora wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
The hostages are ultimately a separate but adjacent cause to Zionism.


So perhaps were the victims of the embassy and peaceful protests adjacent but separate to the cause of zionism?
How does a person's birth or upbringing dictate their culpability exactly.

On the flipside do you really honestly consider the perps to be honourable in their intent or justified in their actions. In case you forgot, the victims of Oct 7 were largely young people at a rave (not IDF) many of whom were not even Israeli and included people of Filipino and Nepali backgrounds among the dead.

the egyptian dude who was doing his bit for the Palestinian cause caused severe burns with intent to do you really think he stopped and asked his victims "are you pro-zionist?".

there's a reason why Jewish schools have 24hr security because of people who weaponise anti-zionism because of their anti-semitism.


None of that represents an argument that antisemitism was the motive for the shooting.

Do you have an argument for that position, or are you willing to accept that antisemitism was not the motive based on the currently available evidence?


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02 Jun 2025, 5:23 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Do you have an argument for that position, or are you willing to accept that antisemitism was not the motive based on the currently available evidence?


that's my argument, very easy to go from anti-zionism to antisemitic. I think AS mentioned sometime back that once the Palestinian cause became "islamicised" then it went from a justice movement to a "holy war".

Do you actually know or met a Palestinian? I had a Palestinian friend in the 1990s and spoke about this subject in detail. Nice guy, highly educated and moderate. He and his friends/family believed their cause was not just a Palestinian, the formation of Israel was an attack on islam overall. the end goal for him and all Palestinians is a return to 1947. Of course that's never going to happen.
this is going to be a perpetual conflict to the end of days. Justice for Palestinians also means Jewish people have a right to live without fear of being attacked or killed in the street. the Palestinian cause was always hijacked as an Islamic/pan arab cause. No amount of intellectual justification for retaliation is going to change this. Or safety of Jewish people anywhere in the world.



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02 Jun 2025, 5:39 pm

cyberdora wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Do you have an argument for that position, or are you willing to accept that antisemitism was not the motive based on the currently available evidence?


that's my argument, very easy to go from anti-zionism to antisemitic. I think AS mentioned sometime back that once the Palestinian cause became "islamicised" then it went from a justice movement to a "holy war".

Do you actually know or met a Palestinian? I had a Palestinian friend in the 1990s and spoke about this subject in detail. Nice guy, highly educated and moderate. He and his friends/family believed their cause was not just a Palestinian, the formation of Israel was an attack on islam overall. the end goal for him and all Palestinians is a return to 1947. Of course that's never going to happen.
this is going to be a perpetual conflict to the end of days. Justice for Palestinians also means Jewish people have a right to live without fear of being attacked or killed in the street. the Palestinian cause was always hijacked as an Islamic/pan arab cause. No amount of intellectual justification for retaliation is going to change this. Or safety of Jewish people anywhere in the world.


Yes, I have known people of Palestinian ancestry.

I think you're overstating how easy it is to go from anti-zionism to antisemitism, that's not to say antisemites don't exist within anti-zionist spaces, only that they tend to receive pushback and that antisemitism isn't the logical conclusion of anti-zionism.

I doubt most anti-zionists are opposed to any Jewish state existing, but they understand it's morally wrong for the Palestinians to end up being the ones punished for the Holocaust. Why should the Palestinians lose their homeland and be subjected to ethnic cleansing because the Germans (and allies) committed genocide against European Jewry?

There's no Israel without horrific injustices being done to the Palestinian people. You can't even begin to discuss justice without acknowledging and accepting that premise. Of course Palestinians feel justice would involve undoing that crime, not just negotiating how much of that crime is legitimized.

You bring up a lot of points that really don't matter to the basic question of what was done and why it's wrong. It doesn't matter if Muslims feel it was a crime against all Muslims, rather than against the Palestinians specifically. It doesn't really matter if some Palestinian Muslims view it as a holy war, if you were in their shoes you'd gravitate towards whatever ideology keeps the fight for justice energized.

At the end of the day you're just offering excuses for why the theft should be legitimized and why justice should be denied. When you kick a hornet's nest, it's the hornets who decide when it's over.


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enz
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02 Jun 2025, 6:06 pm

cyberdora wrote:
the end goal for him and all Palestinians is a return to 1947. Of course that's never going to happen.
this is going to be a perpetual conflict to the end of days. Justice for Palestinians also means Jewish people have a right to live without fear of being attacked or killed in the street. the Palestinian cause was always hijacked as an Islamic/pan arab cause. No amount of intellectual justification for retaliation is going to change this. Or safety of Jewish people anywhere in the world.


to an agnostic this doesn't make much sense



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03 Jun 2025, 2:59 am

funeralxempire wrote:
You bring up a lot of points that really don't matter to the basic question of what was done and why it's wrong. It doesn't matter if Muslims feel it was a crime against all Muslims, rather than against the Palestinians specifically. It doesn't really matter if some Palestinian Muslims view it as a holy war, if you were in their shoes you'd gravitate towards whatever ideology keeps the fight for justice energized.

At the end of the day you're just offering excuses for why the theft should be legitimized and why justice should be denied. When you kick a hornet's nest, it's the hornets who decide when it's over.


then history will repeat until Iran drops Chinese made nuclear weapons on Israel and then nobody gets the so called promised land.



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03 Jun 2025, 3:00 am

enz wrote:
cyberdora wrote:
the end goal for him and all Palestinians is a return to 1947. Of course that's never going to happen.
this is going to be a perpetual conflict to the end of days. Justice for Palestinians also means Jewish people have a right to live without fear of being attacked or killed in the street. the Palestinian cause was always hijacked as an Islamic/pan arab cause. No amount of intellectual justification for retaliation is going to change this. Or safety of Jewish people anywhere in the world.


to an agnostic this doesn't make much sense


Simple - negotiate, trade bargaining chips and rebuild.



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03 Jun 2025, 5:06 am

cyberdora wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You bring up a lot of points that really don't matter to the basic question of what was done and why it's wrong. It doesn't matter if Muslims feel it was a crime against all Muslims, rather than against the Palestinians specifically. It doesn't really matter if some Palestinian Muslims view it as a holy war, if you were in their shoes you'd gravitate towards whatever ideology keeps the fight for justice energized.

At the end of the day you're just offering excuses for why the theft should be legitimized and why justice should be denied. When you kick a hornet's nest, it's the hornets who decide when it's over.


then history will repeat until Iran drops Chinese made nuclear weapons on Israel and then nobody gets the so called promised land.


If Iran uses nukes, they'll be Iranian made. Generally speaking, nuclear powers don't just hand nukes to other nations like you're suggesting, the US and Russia have control over the nukes they've allowed their allies to use.

Further, China's one of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty members. North Korea and Pakistan would make for much more likely partners, if Iran was seeking help. Iran already cooperates with both of those nations in the field of nuclear energy.

It's also pretty out there to assume Iran would nuke Israel for the hell of it. Nukes would make a good deterrent against Israel's regular attacks on Iran. Based on the lessons of the past 20 years, where North Korea's leadership is still standing but several 'rogue states' without nukes faced regime change, nukes seem to be a good way to ensure regime security. If Iran doesn't want the US or Israel to attempt regime change, nukes could potentially be part of that strategy.

Iran getting nukes doesn't mean Israel gets nuked, it means Israel has to change their approach.


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03 Jun 2025, 5:52 am

Iran has been egging Israel for some time
https://www.timesofisrael.com/irgc-chie ... rong-move/



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03 Jun 2025, 6:20 am

funeralxempire wrote:
I think you're overstating how easy it is to go from anti-zionism to antisemitism, that's not to say antisemites don't exist within anti-zionist spaces, only that they tend to receive pushback and that antisemitism isn't the logical conclusion of anti-zionism.

I doubt most anti-zionists are opposed to any Jewish state existing, but they understand it's morally wrong for the Palestinians to end up being the ones punished for the Holocaust. Why should the Palestinians lose their homeland and be subjected to ethnic cleansing because the Germans (and allies) committed genocide against European Jewry?

There's no Israel without horrific injustices being done to the Palestinian people. You can't even begin to discuss justice without acknowledging and accepting that premise. Of course Palestinians feel justice would involve undoing that crime, not just negotiating how much of that crime is legitimized.

If they are not opposed to any Jewish State then they are not anti zionist.

I don’t feel that a Jewish State in the current day Israel inevitably had to end up in cleansing, that is the result of choices people made. A religious conflict involving who should govern a piece of land does not have to end in cleansing - See Northern Ireland.

I think you are underestimating how often anti zionists either are subconsciously antisemitic or intentionally don’t mention their antisemitism because they understand doing so hurts the Palestinian cause.

To be fair why would it not be easy for anti zionists to conflate zionism with Jews when the vast majority of Jews and practically all their spokesmen do so?

Based on the target chosen it is a stretch to think the shooter of the diplomats is antisemitic. The flamethrower not so much. I can suspect all I want, the fact is these people said nothing about Jews.


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03 Jun 2025, 2:29 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I think you're overstating how easy it is to go from anti-zionism to antisemitism, that's not to say antisemites don't exist within anti-zionist spaces, only that they tend to receive pushback and that antisemitism isn't the logical conclusion of anti-zionism.

I doubt most anti-zionists are opposed to any Jewish state existing, but they understand it's morally wrong for the Palestinians to end up being the ones punished for the Holocaust. Why should the Palestinians lose their homeland and be subjected to ethnic cleansing because the Germans (and allies) committed genocide against European Jewry?

There's no Israel without horrific injustices being done to the Palestinian people. You can't even begin to discuss justice without acknowledging and accepting that premise. Of course Palestinians feel justice would involve undoing that crime, not just negotiating how much of that crime is legitimized.

If they are not opposed to any Jewish State then they are not anti zionist.


That's technically correct (aka the best type of correct), but if you ask them how they identify, you'd see a lot of them identifying as anti-zionist. This might be the result of the creation of Israel causing Zionism to shift from being about a hypothetical state to having an actual state to identify with.

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ASPartOfMe wrote:
I don’t feel that a Jewish State in the current day Israel inevitably had to end up in cleansing, that is the result of choices people made. A religious conflict involving who should govern a piece of land does not have to end in cleansing - See Northern Ireland.


I'm not sure I agree, but that might be down to not believing different choices would have been made.

Ireland might be different because the Brits/Prots had no desire to eradicate the Irish, they wanted their labour. A significant portion of the Zionist movement didn't want to rely on local labour, they wanted to replace the locals from the get-go. This is according to their own writings.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I think you are underestimating how often anti zionists either are subconsciously antisemitic or intentionally don’t mention their antisemitism because they understand doing so hurts the Palestinian cause.


That's fair, I only interact with certain segments of the people who identify as anti-zionist and generally try to avoid people who deal with blatant antisemitism so I might be underestimating their prevalence. That said, from what I've seen there's a lot of people who are largely informed by Jewish anti-zionists, who seem unlikely to have their anti-zionism rooted in antisemitism.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
To be fair why would it not be easy for anti zionists to conflate zionism with Jews when the vast majority of Jews and practically all their spokesmen do so?


I agree, although I'd circle back to the role anti-zionist Jews play in informing other anti-zionists, and how that's one of the issues they're generally quick to break down for people since obviously they don't want Israel and the zionist lobby speaking for them.


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funeralxempire
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03 Jun 2025, 2:30 pm

cyberdora wrote:
Iran has been egging Israel for some time
https://www.timesofisrael.com/irgc-chie ... rong-move/


Has that antagonism been one-sided or reciprocal? :scratch:


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Real power is achieved when the ruling class controls the material essentials of life, granting and withholding them from the masses as if they were privileges.—George Orwell