Does the term "Jewish Christian" make sense?

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This is a minor issue that people often get major about.

Of course they are allowed to eat pork. They don't have to, of course -- it's not "part of being a Christian" to eat pork. But Jews and Gentiles alike who want to uphold the law of Moses logically have to abstain from pork because the law forbids its consumption. (Of course, people who wish to uphold Mosaic law also have to offer blood sacrifices in the Temple, and, last I checked, there is no current Jewish Temple in which to atone for sins through the Mosaic commanded method. So those who believe they will be judged by how well they keep the law of Moses must live completely perfect lives, at least until the third Temple is built. Do you live a perfect life? I don't. And I'm glad I don't have to, since I have requested and accepted Yeshua's forgiveness.)

But honestly, and to revisit my earlier thought, God is not sitting up in Heaven hoping that certain people don't eat pork.
And if you do think that God is worried about that, you may wish to expand your estimation of who God is, and upon what scale He operates. Religion is not about pork, its about serving God through kindness toward our fellow human beings.
(Being kind to pigs is also allowed. )

What I mean by taking them both together is that the Old Testament actively and deliberately predicts the Age of Grace, in which the "Redeemer" saves us from our inherent affliction of sin.

Job saw this, and thus it is mentioned in the one of the oldest books of the Bible. He said in chapter 19, verses 25-27 of his book:
I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God*; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!
We have here a mention of eternal life (for it is well established that no man can see God* and remain alive in the flesh) through this "Redeemer", who saves us from our earthly plight of suffering.

And Isaiah writes:
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (53: 5-6)

The laws in the Old Testament were written to show us two things: 1) what God truly expects from His creation (i.e., absolute obedience with no deviation), and 2) that man cannot meet this standard in his present state. So, the whole Old Testament was written around the premise that a Messiah would eventually come to lift the unbearable burden of absolute law keeping (necessary legalism) from off our shoulders. The point of the Old Testament is mankind's eventual progress into the Messianic era, which beginnings are chronicled in the Brit Hadashah, or New Covenant/Testament.

The Tanakh (Old Testament) without the Brit Hadasha (New Testament) is like an egg that always stays an egg, or like a child who never grows up. Is an adult not who he was as a child? In a sense no, but in the truest sense yes. Is growing into adult a "rejection" of the childhood? By no means. It's merely a progression from one state to the next appointed form.

In the same book, he yells at the Pharisees for reading things without bothering to know their meaning. They just parroted the decaying beliefs and interpretations of their elders without once bothering to assert their own minds to the task of comprehending the meaning of the Sabbath. Jesus did not say that the Kingdom of Heaven was closed to the Gentiles or to the Samaritans. He merely told his followers, in a particular instance, not to go about telling people of different cultures how to go about living their lives.

The Gospels make a lot more sense, however, after a thorough reading of Isaiah.

In any case, I think that the Jews were supposed to be redeemed in some other way. They kinda have their own thing going on, and the Gentiles aren't supposed to interfere in it.

if they follow the OT laws, they wouldn't.

I was seventh-day adventist, which they consider themselves Christians, I suppose they could consider themselves "True Christians".

Anyway, they hold some of jewish traditions, like the importance of the 10 commandments, and the observation of the Sabbath, beginning on Friday's sunset, they also don't eat animals that the book of Leviticus forbids like pork as well other "impure" animals.

Yes it is possible to be a Jew AND believe in Jesus. The first Christians did probably not worship Jesus, but they did consider him to be the heavenly high-priest, the mediator between God and man. Praying in Jesus' name is not the same thing as praying to Jesus. Jesus never taught people to abandon the Law of Moses. The "apostle" Paul did, however, have a very negative attitude towards the Jewish traditions.

Jesus was more strict in his theology than many, which makes me suspect there was some connection between the first Christians and the Essenes. The Essenes did also forbid divorce, recommended celibate, teach in parables and they had many other things in common with Christians. "The new covenant" was also a widely used Essene concept.

Modern Judaism is different from Judaism in the time of Jesus. Much has happened in 2000 years.

Read more at:
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflec ... chian.html
http://latter-rain.com/Israel/essenes.htm
http://jesusdynasty.com/blog/2006/08/31 ... e-essenes/

I wouldn't describe it as simply "filling it in with whatever they want." Frankly, I find that ironic coming from you since it's clear you want to believe that you can be Jewish and Christian at the same time and that Jesus is the messiah. You may say that you believe that to be true. Fine, but my rabbis believe what they're saying to be true is as well. It's obvious that my idea of a satisfying religious experience is worlds apart from yours. I was taught that religion is pretty meaningless unless you apply it to your everyday life, and to do that you can't just rely on something written 5000+ years ago. If that's a satisfying religious experience for you, fine, but don't scorn others for having other preferences. To explain myself further, I find the Jewish concept of tikkun olam fits in very well with my sense of social justice. As a college student I've now read enough Derrida to know that it's foolish to thing you can arrive at a singular interpretation of any text, anyway. (Besides, the Torah has been re-copied and translated many times. Do you read Ancient Hebrew?) To me, my way (Reform Judaism) is more meaningful than religion in the abstract. Obviously you feel differently, but it's a bit rich for you to say that my experiences don't "make sense." When I was told the Torah "straight", I never felt closer to God. I felt bored. It's rude of you to tell other people that their religion is incomplete without the New Testament. I don't tell Christians their religion is incomplete because they don't observe Passover or Yom Kippur. It's okay for you to disregard the laws of Leviticus re: keeping kosher because of modernity, but not okay for Jews to reject the New Testament or for people of all religions to interpret scriptures differently? Do you notice no hypocrisy here? I respect that you have your own preferences. I wish you would do the same.

You keep asking to prove that Jesus "isn't" the messiah, but don't you know you can't prove a negative? Besides, I think the past 2000+ years are pretty good empirical evidence against that theory. If Christians are "Jewish" then surely Muslims are as well, since the Islamic tradition also stems from Judaism.

I agree.



Well, Paul said, Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. (Colossians 3:9-11)

And,
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

Solomon wrote that there is a time for all things, each in its season. Indeed, there was a time for Jew and Gentile to remain separate. But with the arrival of the Messiah, that time has passed. Now is the time for both to unite in Christ.

It's not about a challenge to prove a negative, which is impossible. It's about Jews angrily calling Jewish Christians "meshumed!", traitor, because they believe Yeshua is the Messiah. No angry accusations are warranted, and that's my point.

That is only true if you ignore the social and ethnic part of being Jewish.

Okay, now I'm really confused.

If you don't care whether god cares if you're eating pork, and you're not even religious to begin with (i.e. you don't keep kosher, not you don't 'believe'), who cares if you believe in jesus or not? You're not actually religious anyhow.

I do want to know, however, why you started this thread in the first place--are you actually trying to change people's minds? What do you even care, whether anyone believes you can be christian and jewish at the same time? All that really matters is what you think.

Also, jews aren't angry at christians because of jesus or whatever, it's because jews keep all of gods rules (and there are a hell of a lot of them) and christians keep no rules, other than 'believe in jesus and you will go to heaven'. So basically, the feeling is people converted because christianity is easier than judaism.

From the following, it appears that you are indeed.



Didn't say that, and I do care whether He cares. But for those under Grace, He doesn't.



I'm quite glad that I'm not religious, when you see the things that have been done in the name of religion the world over. I'd much rather simply have faith in Yeshua, the Messiah of Israel, who forgives me for every mistake I ever make, than have to be religious in the sense of having to keep 613 Levitical laws perfectly, at all times, since there's no Temple in which to offer the appropriate animal sacrifices as stipulated under Mosaic Law when I mess up. There is an intrinsic opportunity, here, in Christianity, for humility, exactly where modern Judaism offers, instead, extreme pride and personal pomposity at the erroneous concept of one's accomplishment of personal perfection, through supposedly-perfect law keeping. All religious legalism produces this holier-than-thou effect. Modern Jews think: "I did it all!" Christians think: "There's no WAY I could have done it all; God did it for me." Hence, correctly-practiced Christianity produces a humble, serving, loving attitude, while I see too often from religious Jews the "At least I'm not one of those Gentiles" attitude. My step-mother has been spat on by Othodox Jewish men in Israel, and I've heard similar examples from friends and family of other such blatantly elitist displays. Excessive pride messes people up, Jews and Gentiles alike. The Pope and most televangelists are perfect examples of excessive pride in Gentiles, and you see what it does to them. The entire Nazi message could be encapsulated by the word "pride". It breeds all other sins.

Some Jews even say they keep all 613 laws perfectly, but I hope we can both move on with this discussion, knowing that such perfect law abiding is impossible for any human being. Yeshua was my blood sacrifice forever, because His blood was that of an innocent man, making His sacrifice infinite in scope, able to atone before the Father for all of mankind's sins -- past, present, and future.



I want people to answer the question I posted, and to truly answer it. I reject all pat answers; I want people to really think this issue through, and not just swallow and regergitate the cliché, "Jews can't be Christians", when in fact the only people in history who ever could not be Christians were Gentiles. An infinitely more accurate phrase to know is: "If a Gentile can be a Christian, anyone can!" because that underlines the true, thoroughly Jewish consistencey of Christianity.



I find the above sentence to be a useless distraction, in that information and thoughts are being exchanged between people of differing views, which is what diversity is, so why would you want to block or object to that exchange?



Christians did not make serving God easier; God did that, to show us His love. Do you believe that God is both just and merciful? Those terms sound mutually exclusive, but they are not. (See Psalm 89:14) here, if you wish.

And you are partially but critically incorrect when you say that "Jews keep all of God's rules". Why did Moses command animal sacrifice when God's laws were given to the Jews? Because people could not keep all the laws without messing up. Yom Kippur, the most important and solemn of the Jewish holidays. Why? Because people sin. That means they don't keep all of God's laws.

... Wtf does that mean? Why would he care for some people and not others, unless you think you're better than other people?


Excessively racist paragraph ftw. So, because some religious people are bad, all of them are bad--I see.
And while you say 'correctly practiced' christianity, you never say 'correctly practiced' judaism. More racism, or simply biased?
And why can't you be religious and not be full of pride? You've met all the religious people now, have you?
Not to mention that you seem more egoistic than anyone I know.

Also, I wish to mention that the jewish laws are updated. No, we do not sacrifice animals, for obvious reasons. However, I'm pretty sure religious jews keep more than 1 rule.



Perhaps perfect law abiding is impossible, but when a religious jew makes a mistake they ask for forgiveness in the correct way--and they do attempt to keep all the laws that are realistically possible.

And please don't go on about jesus being your saviour, I don't care.


Explain to me why jews can be christians. You seem to expect everyone to counter your claims, but you never explain yourself to begin with.



Okay, haha, I'm not 'blocking' or 'objecting' to anything. I'm asking questions, as you have done so many times. Apparently asking why you care what other people think = not letting you talk?



You can say 'god make serving him easier', but that's as much of an excuse as an excuse can get, and even more insulting. If god did do that, that would mean his previous rules that built up judaism were nonexistent. Obviously, since jews don't believe in jesus to begin with (or at least that he was 'our savior'), that's quite a disgusting thought.
Oh, and no, I do not believe god is both just and merciful. I don't believe in god at all. And I don't want to see your psalms, I really don't care.

And alright, what I meant was that jews try to keep all of god's rules. Obviously they sin, but religious jews try to keep the rules god gave them, while christians completely forgot about them.

Um, this is the most basic tenet of Christianity. Do you not know this? Christ released us from being required to keep the 613 Levitical laws, including eating pork. Against, pork is a minor issue -- certainly not one big enough to separate two religions, for goodness sake! And I'd appreciate if, during a debate as serious as this, you keep the tone civil, and keep your "wtf"s and past similar disrespects to yourself. Thank you.



Huh? I demonstrated how Jews and Gentiles are both to blame, because the flaw of pride is something endemic to humanity itself. Incidently, I've heard of Gentile Christians who are so anti-Semitic, that upon being informed that their Messiah is Jewish and thoroughly so, they become disappointed, and declare that they cannot continue being a Christian.

So, to any Gentile Christians out there who think your church saves you, remember what Jesus told the Gentile woman at the well: "You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews." (John 4:22) There are no anti-Semites in Heaven, so you're going to have to love the Jews if you want to get there.



I did indicate, and clearly, what correctly practiced Judaism is. I've made that point throughout this entire thread. The Tanakh prophesied, and deliberately led into, Christianity. The religion never changed, only the name did. Modern "Judaism" is, ironically, stuck back before the time of Christ, because they are still waiting for a Messiah who has already arrived. And that saddens me greatly.


The point is about legalism, and I've explained why it leads to a sense of self-righteousness. (It's pretty obvious if you think about it.)



Do rabbis claim that God personally tells them to "update" laws and atonement methods? If not, then they are, logically, a lesser authority than Moses. Hence, the laws and precepts that Moses (who heard God's actual voice) laid down remain in effect to this day, for all Jews who have not accepted the redemption of Israel's Messiah. This is simple logic. Neither can Gentiles be saved and enter Heaven any other way than by accepting the Jewish Messiah.



But does such meet God's requirements? That's my point. Are they sure? There is no assurance in modern Judaism of where religious Jews will spend eternity -- it's just "If your good works outweigh your bad works." And no one can keep track of that. So they have to shrug at the question, and continue on attempting to make it to Heaven. And also, this balance system -- of good and bad weighed together to determine your fate -- that is not Mosaic at all. Under Mosaic Law, even one sin is a blight that must be atoned for, and with a blood sacrifice.



Have you even read the thread? I have explained it quite clearly.

Please, please, please try to understand how offensive this is. It is not up to you to decide what Judaism is! Judaism is a religion (associated an ethnicity) which you do not belong to, and as such you hardly have the right to dictate to others what it "really" is. Of course Judaism has changed over the years. How the heck does anything survive for more than 5000 years without changing? I understand you don't like the direction it has taken, but that doesn't mean you have the right to claim that people are somehow not "really" practicing their own religion. It is your opinion that Jesus is the messiah, and I really don't appreciate the insinuation that people who don't agree with you are somehow "sad" or duped or "stuck behind the times", or whatever. I don't need your sadness, thanks.

People have the right to self-determine. It is offensive that you would claim Christians are "really" Jewish when very few people of either group would agree. People have the right to decide what they call themselves, and what they believe.

I still don't quite understand why Jews are supposed to believe that Jesus is the messiah when his followers have brought Jews so much misery. I guess when you're not part of the group in question, you can feel A-OK about making these kinds of imposing pronouncements.

The reasons why Jesus can't be the messiah are:
1. The messiah will not be divine. He will be a man like you or me. (Also, G-d does not have a son. The idea of G-d and a mortal woman having a child is more pagan than Jewish.)
2. He fulfilled none of the requirements. There is still war and no Third Temple.
3. The verses that claim to support that he is the messiah are taken out of context or mistranslated.

The reasona why a lot of people have problems with Messianic Jews are:
1. They pretend to be religiously Jewish when they are religiously Christian. Once you accept Jesus as the messiah, you are a Christian. Period.
2. A lot of Jews are touchy about Christians trying to convert them because of how Christians have treated Jews in the past.

Wrong.

Matthew 5:17-20:
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

How does that translate into, "I have come to abolish the laws and you can reject them by accepting me."?

It doesn't.



Not all of the Messianic prophecy has been fulfilled = Messiah has not arrived. Hard for you to face up to, but Jesus is another failed Messiah, not the Messiah. Also, the Messiah will not be a demi-god or God in the flesh. The Messiah will be a man through and through.