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monty
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28 Aug 2008, 9:09 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
monty wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Looks like 7/50 of states have legislation against vocal atheists in office. Leaving 43/50 of states that allow it possibly. Should a Federal law be passed to override the sovereignty of states?


Yes - if such a law is needed. Freedom of religion should be guaranteed to all citizens of the US.



How come atheists will call Atheism a religion when they want benefits, but say it's not a religion in other arguments? Also, skafather's copy-paste says that atheists have been strong proponents of "freedom of religion", but rather they promote their own version which is better called,
"freedom from religion."

First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [such as the Church of England was], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof [such as England had done to the "heretic" Churches];..."


Why do some atheists call atheism a religion, and some do not? Why are there differences between Catholics and Lutherans and Pentacostals? You are making an assumption that atheism is one large, monolithic entity when clearly it is not.

As I understand it, most atheists do not consider atheism a religion, but many non-atheists try to categorize it as a religion. For tax purposes, some ethical societies have filed as religious organizations, and were able to show that those particular organizations should get non-profit status, even though they do not have the doctrines that are usually considered hallmarks of religions.

Another way of looking at is that the religious beliefs of atheists consist of the null set, and they should be free to have those beliefs with respect to religion - a free individual should not be penalized by the state for refusing to adopt theistic beliefs.

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
The fact that the first amendment was to protect citizens from the actions of England being repeated?


There is no doubt that the founders wanted to avoid a repetition of the mistakes they suffered at the hands of the English King (as well as persecution suffered by other groups across Europe). There is also no doubt that they believed in freedom. While most of the founding fathers were adherents to Christianity, they did not establish our political order on Christianity - religious freedom was a founding principle. To penalize those who have particular beliefs (or who have no belief in God) is to make a mockery of religious freedom.



Last edited by monty on 28 Aug 2008, 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

iamnotaparakeet
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28 Aug 2008, 9:25 am

monty wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
monty wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Looks like 7/50 of states have legislation against vocal atheists in office. Leaving 43/50 of states that allow it possibly. Should a Federal law be passed to override the sovereignty of states?


Yes - if such a law is needed. Freedom of religion should be guaranteed to all citizens of the US.



How come atheists will call Atheism a religion when they want benefits, but say it's not a religion in other arguments? Also, skafather's copy-paste says that atheists have been strong proponents of "freedom of religion", but rather they promote their own version which is better called,
"freedom from religion."

First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [such as the Church of England was], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof [such as England had done to the "heretic" Churches];..."


Why do some atheists call atheism a religion, and some do not? Why are there differences between Catholics and Lutherans and Pentacostals? You are making an assumption that atheism is one large, monolithic entity when clearly it is not.

As I understand it, most atheists do not consider atheism a religion, but many non-atheists try to categorize it as a religion. For tax purposes, some ethical societies have filed as religious organizations, and were able to show that those particular organizations should get non-profit status, even though they do not have the doctrines of religions.

Another way of looking at is that the religious beliefs of atheists consist of the null set, and they should be free to have those beliefs with respect to religion - a free individual should not be penalized by the state for refusing to adopt theistic beliefs.

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
The fact that the first amendment was to protect citizens from the actions of England being repeated?


There is no doubt that the founders wanted to avoid a repetition of the mistakes they suffered at the hands of the English King. There is also no doubt that they believed in freedom. While most of the founding fathers were adherents to Christianity, they did not found the country on Christianity - religious freedom was the founding principle. To penalize those who have particular beliefs (or who have no belief in God) is to make a mockery of religious freedom.


Yes, and the 7 out of 50 states are incorrect in their legislation.



Dogbrain
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28 Aug 2008, 12:07 pm

skafather84 wrote:
and you're trying to goad me on like a child. i removed myself for a specific reason and listed that reason which you conveniently deleted you worthless piece of sh**.


You're the one who has been just whining on and on about your delusions of persecution and then attacking anyone who dares confront you with the tiniest bit of reality.

Thus, if anyone qualifies to be a "worthless piece of s**t", it would be you.



skafather84
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28 Aug 2008, 12:18 pm

Dogbrain wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
and you're trying to goad me on like a child. i removed myself for a specific reason and listed that reason which you conveniently deleted you worthless piece of sh**.


You're the one who has been just whining on and on about your delusions of persecution and then attacking anyone who dares confront you with the tiniest bit of reality.

Thus, if anyone qualifies to be a "worthless piece of sh**", it would be you.


quit being a troll.


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PLA
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30 Aug 2008, 2:02 am

"Religious freedom" should include freedom from religion.


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iamnotaparakeet
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30 Aug 2008, 2:13 am

PLA wrote:
"Religious freedom" should include freedom from religion.


The word "from" connotatively implies stealing other people's rights away.



greenblue
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30 Aug 2008, 2:35 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
PLA wrote:
"Religious freedom" should include freedom from religion.


The word "from" connotatively implies stealing other people's rights away.

Not really, it actually implies that freedom of religion should include the freedom and acceptance of atheism and agnosticism as well as any other religion, as long as those are not harmful.


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iamnotaparakeet
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30 Aug 2008, 3:13 am

greenblue wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
PLA wrote:
"Religious freedom" should include freedom from religion.


The word "from" connotatively implies stealing other people's rights away.

Not really, it actually implies that freedom of religion should include the freedom and acceptance of atheism and agnosticism as well as any other religion, as long as those are not harmful.


That I have no problem with. But removing people's right to pray, assemble, et cetera is unacceptable.



Dogbrain
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01 Sep 2008, 12:26 am

skafather84 wrote:
Dogbrain wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
and you're trying to goad me on like a child. i removed myself for a specific reason and listed that reason which you conveniently deleted you worthless piece of sh**.


You're the one who has been just whining on and on about your delusions of persecution and then attacking anyone who dares confront you with the tiniest bit of reality.

Thus, if anyone qualifies to be a "worthless piece of sh**", it would be you.


quit being a troll.


Since, your use of "troll" means "someone who exposes your whining and puling for what it is", nobody with any ethics would quit.