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LKL
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01 Sep 2008, 12:14 am

Orwell wrote:
Legally speaking, parents are obligated to care for their children by providing them with food, shelter, etc.


Parents are not required to donate organs to their children. They aren't even required to donate blood, even if it will save their child's life.

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Look, I've heard this pro-choice arguments before, and I think it is very weak. It smacks of desperation.


Maybe because you know that there's no way anyone would legally force you, a male, to donate your body to another citizen for 9 months. Whether you were responsible for their condition or not.



Last edited by LKL on 01 Sep 2008, 12:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

LKL
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01 Sep 2008, 12:23 am

twoshots wrote:
Plagiarism is a sin. :shameonyou:


WTF?
That was out of my own head.



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01 Sep 2008, 2:10 am

Orwell, until you find yourself unexpectedly pregnant and facing such a decision I suggest you don't comment on what it's like to realise there's something in there growing and hijacking your body. Believe me, you don't feel nothing - it doesn't just grow then pop out. Your entire body changes and your entire outlook - your entire being - changes from that very first day. It's not something to call a weak argument, as you could ask anyone who's ever been pregnant.

As for whoever said my argument was invalid - until you've been unexpectedly pregnant and had to actually go through such a decision yourself, I suggest my views are a little more experienced and a little more pertinent than yours. :)


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LeKiwi
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01 Sep 2008, 2:12 am

And again, can someone anti-abortion please tell me how this is a bigger issue than the brutal slaughter of millions of LIVE, LIVING, BREATHING, LOVED human beings, as is what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan, and will continue long after you leave the area? Or are they not human because they were born in those countries? Do their families love them any less, are they less wanted, are they inferior?


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greenblue
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01 Sep 2008, 2:17 am

Quite frankly, this anti-abortion thing doesn't make sense.


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LKL
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01 Sep 2008, 2:26 am

LeKiwi wrote:
And again, can someone anti-abortion please tell me how this is a bigger issue than the brutal slaughter of millions of LIVE, LIVING, BREATHING, LOVED human beings, as is what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan, and will continue long after you leave the area? Or are they not human because they were born in those countries? Do their families love them any less, are they less wanted, are they inferior?


QFT.



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01 Sep 2008, 6:50 am

I believe that an abortion is totally the choice of the pregnant woman concerned. I do not feel empathy for the foetus or Zygote. I am not going to get into a philosophical discussion about what constitutes a sentient life. All I will say is that my mother was 40 when I was conceived, in 1965 this was not a light hearted matter. She decided after some deep thought to continue with her pregnancy. Later in my life I realised that she must have needed to make a decision to continue with her pregnancy and asked her about it. Many people will/would use this to say that had she had the abortion I would not have existed and therefore would have missed out on my life. To me this is completely illogical. If Mrs Sanders had had an abortion that would have been the end of it, No person would have missed out because they would not know anything about it. Someone asked me if it was then OK if they murdered me, because by my rationale once dead I would know nothing about it. My response to this is that murder is completely different, people that are murdered have friends, families, colleagues who will miss and mourn their passing, etc, in other words they had a life, an unborn foetus does not. A foetus is not a viable life form until it has been born, At the developmental stage when most abortions take place many things can occur to naturally abort it. My partner has 4 kids she has also experienced 11 miscarriages, pregnancy does not equal berth of a child. Until an unborn foestus can sustain life independantly of the mother in my opinion it does not have rights.

On the subject of religion if god exists then god knows what is going on and will surely look after the soul of the 'innocent'. Personally I do not believe in souls.

With regard to my original question I find it bizzare that you can vote for a party and president of such an influencial world power based on so narrow an issue, and yes in world terms I do find it a narrow issue.


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LeKiwi
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01 Sep 2008, 11:56 am

Some of you idiots (because that's what you are) who base your vote on a single non-issue such as this ought to read this:
http://www.rense.com/general64/du.htm

About Depleted Uranium. About the legacy your ridiculous government is leaving. You say you care about unborn babies? How about voting on the war issue instead then? Because until you stop dropping depleted uranium all over these countries, there will be more and more populations who no longer ask "Is it a boy or girl?" when their child is born - they ask "Is it normal?"

That's what they ask now. Not about the gender - who cares. They worry about if it's deformed, if it's got three legs, if it's got heart problems or can breathe. "Is it normal?". Fancy that.

And you know what? It doesn't just stop when you stop dropping the bombs. It continues in that region forever in the land. In the people's DNA that is forever mutated and changed. It will continue for generation after generation.

And you say you care about unborn children... open your eyes! Afghanis and Iraqis have babies, too!! :evil:


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twoshots
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01 Sep 2008, 1:34 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
Some of you idiots (because that's what you are) who base your vote on a single non-issue such as this ought to read this:
http://www.rense.com/general64/du.htm

About Depleted Uranium. About the legacy your ridiculous government is leaving. You say you care about unborn babies? How about voting on the war issue instead then? Because until you stop dropping depleted uranium all over these countries, there will be more and more populations who no longer ask "Is it a boy or girl?" when their child is born - they ask "Is it normal?"

That's what they ask now. Not about the gender - who cares. They worry about if it's deformed, if it's got three legs, if it's got heart problems or can breathe. "Is it normal?". Fancy that.

And you know what? It doesn't just stop when you stop dropping the bombs. It continues in that region forever in the land. In the people's DNA that is forever mutated and changed. It will continue for generation after generation.

And you say you care about unborn children... open your eyes! Afghanis and Iraqis have babies, too!! :evil:

Aside from how...unspectacular...this argument is, getting caught up on DU is largely a talking point of people who couldn't figure out the difference between U-238 and U-235 if their life depended on it (I mean, I stopped reading your article when it got to the point of comparing DU to Chernobyl). I'm not advocating using the stuff, but it is a lot less radioactive than that evil stuff, and the preponderance of scientific literature on the subject has failed to demonstrate that it's really all that bad.
The WHO wrote:
Potential health effects of exposure to depleted uranium

* In the kidneys, the proximal tubules (the main filtering component of the kidney) are considered to be the main site of potential damage from chemical toxicity [read: not radioactivity] of uranium. There is limited information from human studies indicating that the severity of effects on kidney function and the time taken for renal function to return to normal both increase with the level of uranium exposure.
* In a number of studies on uranium miners, an increased risk of lung cancer was demonstrated, but this has been attributed to exposure from radon decay products. Lung tissue damage is possible leading to a risk of lung cancer that increases with increasing radiation dose. However, because DU is only weakly radioactive, very large amounts of dust (on the order of grams) would have to be inhaled for the additional risk of lung cancer to be detectable in an exposed group. Risks for other radiation-induced cancers, including leukaemia, are considered to be very much lower than for lung cancer.
* Erythema (superficial inflammation of the skin) or other effects on the skin are unlikely to occur even if DU is held against the skin for long periods (weeks).
* No consistent or confirmed adverse chemical effects of uranium have been reported for the skeleton or liver.
* No reproductive or developmental effects have been reported in humans.
* Although uranium released from embedded fragments may accumulate in the central nervous system (CNS) tissue, and some animal and human studies are suggestive of effects on CNS function, it is difficult to draw firm conclusions from the few studies reported

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/
Now, again, I'll state I'm not all for using the stuff, but you're presenting your argument in a typically politicized approach. So I'll go on.
Quote:
No evidence is documented in the literature of cancer or any other negative health effect related to the radiation received from exposure to depleted or natural uranium, whether inhaled or ingested, even at very high doses

"A Review of the Scientific Literature as it Pertains to Gulf War Illnesses," Rand Report, 1999
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the present scientific consensus is that DU exposure to humans, in locations where DU ammunition was deployed, is very unlikely to give rise to cancer induction

James P. Mc Laughin, Michael P.R. Waligorski (2001). "Depleted Uranium - A Health, Environmental or Societal Issue?". Archive of Oncology 9 (4): 213
Quote:
* Based on credible scientific evidence, there is no proven link between DU exposure and increases in human cancers or other significant health or environmental impacts.
* The most definitive study of DU exposure is of Gulf War veterans who have embedded DU shrapnel in their bodies that cannot be removed. To date none has developed any health abnormalities due to uranium chemical toxicity or radio toxicity.
* It is a common misconception that radioactivity is the main health hazard of DU rather than chemical toxicity. Like other heavy metals, DU is potentially poisonous. In sufficient amounts, if DU is ingested or inhaled it can be harmful because of its chemical toxicity. High concentration could cause kidney damage.
* According to the World Health Organization (WHO), very large amounts of DU dust would have to be inhaled to cause lung cancer from radio toxicity. Risks of other radiation-induced cancers, including leukemia, are considered to be very much lower still.

International Atomic Energy Agency Depleted Uranium Factsheet
Quote:
There is a consensus now that DU does not represent a health threat

Richard Stone (2002-09-13). "ENVIRONMENTAL RADIOACTIVITY: New Findings Allay Concerns Over Depleted Uranium". Science Magazine.

This is a question of truth. Check your emotions and politics at the door.

And just because I like to make fun of people, someone once said how horrible it was that U-238 has a half-life of billions of years. By that logic, lead is a monstrosity, as it will essentially never decay 8O


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LeKiwi
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01 Sep 2008, 1:38 pm

*bangs head against wall*

I really really REALLY hate people sometimes.

You're saying you'd base a vote around the issue of abortion over the fact that millions of people are being slaughtered needlessly and will continue to be for millions of years thanks to your f****d up government. That it's ok for babies there to be born deformed and ill and have a s**t life. But that's ok, they're not American, so who gives a s**t right? They're not people, they're monsters! Kill them! Kill them!




Seriously!!


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twoshots
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01 Sep 2008, 1:40 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
*bangs head against wall*

I really really REALLY hate people sometimes.

You're saying you'd base a vote around the issue of abortion over the fact that millions of people are being slaughtered needlessly and will continue to be for millions of years thanks to your f**** up government. That it's ok for babies there to be born deformed and ill and have a sh** life. But that's ok, they're not American, so who gives a sh** right? They're not people, they're monsters! Kill them! Kill them!

What kind of stupid people are you??



Seriously!!

I didn't say that at all. I just exposed how shoddy your thinking is. Seriously, though, if you think emotionally charged language is going to get *me* on your side, you've got another thing coming entirely...


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LeKiwi
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01 Sep 2008, 1:41 pm

I would happily vote for you if you're unable to use it properly.


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LeKiwi
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01 Sep 2008, 1:45 pm

I'm going out. This has just made me so incredibly sad that I feel ill. May post again later when I've calmed down some, otherwise I'm going to end up saying things I might regret.


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01 Sep 2008, 2:19 pm

One issue alone is not enough for me to pick one person over another, although I don't support abortion I will take the gay rights, and the better health care Obama will be pushing for.


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