guess what! there is something more then the universe!

Page 3 of 4 [ 54 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

ToadOfSteel
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,157
Location: New Jersey

29 Sep 2008, 8:57 pm

Haliphron wrote:

God? I was not & Am NOT suggesting in the least that such dark matter/dark energy has supernatural origin :!:

I was saying that since it is unknown it inspires awe and mystical evocations. There is nothing more exciting and more beautiful than the mysterious...

I'm not saying that Dark Matter is supernatural either. I'm just saying that scientists react to Dark Matter and Energy in much the same way that religionists react to God. They believe, even without definitive proof. Both groups base other theories on their respective concepts, even though they are not proven or falsifiable. Hell, both are even studied to find out when and how the universe will come to an end.

Someone please do tell me if there's a scientific test for direct observation of Dark Matter, though...

Eggman
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 17 Jul 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,676

29 Sep 2008, 9:23 pm

Fnord wrote:

Eggman wrote:

There are theries thet have many such univereses.

No ... the concept of a Multiverse is not a theory, it is merely an idea that is beyond proof. This is because if a thing can be measured, then it is part of the universe; but that if it can not, then it is merely an idea or a concept. Sorta like Heaven and Hell...

Sure it is, and explains the quantum world.

twoshots
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,731
Location: Boötes void

29 Sep 2008, 11:21 pm

Brief technical criticism.
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/dark-flow-errors.html
Conclusion : "their conclusions cannot be trusted"

I'm not sure how much you can trust anything with a "not joke"...

It will be interesting to see how this goes.

_________________
* here for the nachos.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,953
Location:

29 Sep 2008, 11:23 pm

Eggman wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Eggman wrote:

There are theries thet have many such univereses.

Sure it is, and explains the quantum world.

No. Quanta can be measured.

_________________
The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.

Haliphron
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,980

29 Sep 2008, 11:35 pm

Fnord wrote:

Haliphron wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Haliphron wrote:

...NO ONE has any tangible evidence of what lies beyond the Universe...

There is no measurable 'beyond' to the Universe. Even if we live inside an 'n-sphere' (which is more speculation) there is no real, measurable evidence to support the idea that there is anything else. Let's leave the speculative 'science' fiction to the professionals in Hollywood.

That doesnt change the fact that absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absense!

It is at least equally heinous to assert that an idea must be valid simply because there can exist no evidence to refute it. The burden of proof for the existance of a 'Multiverse' lies squarely upon those who make the assertion of such a state.

Show me your 'Multiverse', and I will believe. Show me where the Universe ends and the 'Otherverse' begins, and I will believe. Take me to a divergeant time-line, and I will believe. Open the gates to Heaven and Hell just long enough for me to get a peak inside, and I will believe.

I'm open to the possibility of a Multiverse, but you'll have to provide me with a clear demonstration to prove it's existence to me.

Excuse me , but it was NOT I who has been extolling the multiverse theory as fact, but what I have said is that your theory that there is *Nothing* is equally unsubstantiated and unprovable by you at this time. There isnt any evidence that this *dark flow* is coming from outside the Universe, however it certainly does strongly suggest the existence of higher dimensions.

Eggman
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 17 Jul 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,676

29 Sep 2008, 11:49 pm

Fnord wrote:

Eggman wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Eggman wrote:

There are theries thet have many such univereses.

Sure it is, and explains the quantum world.

No. Quanta can be measured.

Which is why it is supported by it.

twoshots
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,731
Location: Boötes void

30 Sep 2008, 9:24 pm

Fnord wrote:

Eggman wrote:

There are theries thet have many such univereses.

I'm not exactly sure which multiverse concept this is coming from, but it should be noted this isn't entirely hogwash, as they are generally claiming that this is a result of the inflationary model of the universe. Like any model, this can make predictions or have explanations which would bolster our confidence in it. According to space.com:

Quote:

A theory called inflation posits that the universe we see is just a small bubble of space-time that got rapidly expanded after the Big Bang. There could be other parts of the cosmos beyond this bubble that we cannot see.

In these regions, space-time might be very different, and likely doesn't contain stars and galaxies (which only formed because of the particular density pattern of mass in our bubble). It could include giant, massive structures much larger than anything in our own observable universe. These structures are what researchers suspect are tugging on the galaxy clusters, causing the dark flow.

"The structures responsible for this motion have been pushed so far away by inflation, I would guesstimate they may be hundreds of billions of light years away, that we cannot see even with the deepest telescopes because the light emitted there could not have reached us in the age of the universe," Kashlinsky said in a telephone interview. "Most likely to create such a coherent flow they would have to be some very strange structures, maybe some warped space time. But this is just pure speculation.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/0 ... flows.html

On the other hand, given that description and especially the wikipedia page, it sounds less like this is some notion of a multiverse per se, but certainly very interesting. If you can sift through the jargon, you can get some impression straight from the horse's mouth

Quote:

An interesting, if exotic, explanation for such a “dark flow” would come naturally within certain inflationary models. In general, within these models the observable Universe represents part of a homogeneous inflated region embedded in an inhomogeneous space-time. On scales much larger than the Hubble radius, pre-inflationary remnants can induce tilt including CMB anisotropies generated by the Grischuk-Zeldovich (Grischuk & Zeldovich 1978) effect (Turner 1991; Kashlinsky et al 1994). These can arise from the parts of space-time that inflated at different times and rate...

(available online here.) I'm going to read up on the inflationary model...

Fnord wrote:

Eggman wrote:

Sure it is, and explains the quantum world.

No. Quanta can be measured.

I believe Eggman is referring to the completely unrelated metaverse in the many world interpretation of QT. While this is not a theory, it does provide an objective account of "wave function collapse" which is otherwise a rather funny phenomenon.

_________________
* here for the nachos.

Legato
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 822

30 Sep 2008, 11:27 pm

Note the verbaige used within the article:

"another baffling cosmic puzzle has been discovered."

Also, this discovery is NECESSARILY part of the universe, ergo - nothing beyond our universe has ever been discovered.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,953
Location:

01 Oct 2008, 1:51 pm

Legato wrote:

... Also, this discovery is NECESSARILY part of the universe, ergo - nothing beyond our universe has ever been discovered.

Not only is there nothing there, but there is no there there!

Haliphron
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,980

01 Oct 2008, 2:44 pm

Fnord wrote:

Legato wrote:

... Also, this discovery is NECESSARILY part of the universe, ergo - nothing beyond our universe has ever been discovered.

Not only is there nothing there,

Evidence please? *Universal* negatives DO indeed require proof as well. :wink:

Quote:

but there is no there there!

Nonsense. The Universe can not only be described geometrically, but so can the *space*(mathematical rather than physical) beyond it. Know anything about Manifolds and embeddings?

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,953
Location:

01 Oct 2008, 3:02 pm

DAMMIT! JUST DRAW ME A FREEKIN ROADMAP ALREADY!! !

Dear Everybody,

I'm sick of this metaphysical, esoteric, mealy-mouthed double-talk. If there is really another universe besides this one, then either show it to me or show me the way there.

And don't bother getting all religious on me, because I'm buying into none of that crap either.

F.

EDIT: A more detailed version of this post has been entered in my blog on this website under the subject of "You're Full Of Crap!" -F-

Haliphron
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,980

01 Oct 2008, 5:58 pm

Fnord wrote:

Dear Everybody,

I'm sick of this metaphysical, esoteric, mealy-mouthed double-talk. If there is really another universe besides this one, then either show it to me or show me the way there.

Given the macroscopic determinism of the Universe, we can infer that to preserve causality space and time MUST have a beginning! Astronomical observations support this notion; they ALSO show that the Universe is finite in Size as well.
Dont you see now??....The Universe had to come from Somewhere and I am NOT suggesting that an intelligent supernatural being created it but the conservation of causality means that there was something *before* it(in imaginary time)that trigged the Big Bang. Fnord: your ego is just too big for you to admit that you really DONT know what you're talking about here!! ! I dont give a Shit if you think Im full of crap since you seem to proud to admit the gaping holes in your logic about this issue.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,953
Location:

01 Oct 2008, 6:15 pm

Haliphron wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Dear Everybody,

I'm sick of this metaphysical, esoteric, mealy-mouthed double-talk. If there is really another universe besides this one, then either show it to me or show me the way there.

And don't bother getting all religious on me, because I'm buying into none of that crap either.

F.

Where do you get this information? Please cite the reference to the finite size of the Universe. Everything I've read gives only an estimate, and even the idea that the Universe is finite is not shared by all scientists.

Haliphron wrote:

Dont you see now??....The Universe had to come from Somewhere and I am NOT suggesting that an intelligent supernatural being created it but the conservation of causality means that there was something *before* it(in imaginary time)that trigged the Big Bang.

Perhaps, but what was it?

Haliphron wrote:

Fnord: your ego is just too big for you to admit that you really DONT know what you're talking about here!! ! I dont give a Shit if you think Im full of crap since you seem to proud to admit the gaping holes in your logic about this issue.

You haven't read my blog, in which I admit that I do not know everything.

But I also ask ... no, I demand to be shown proof. Not ideas, not conjectures, not fantasies, and certainly not religious faith, but proof. Show me this alternate Universe of which you post.

This is not a "put-up-or-shut-up" ultimatum, it's more of a "put-your-claims-into-action" type of demand.

Finally, I'm sorry to have upset you. However, I will not apologize for what I have posted. I will not apologize for scoffing at unsupported beliefs, conjectures, fantasies, or ideas. I will, however, admit that I'm wrong and apologize for everything if and when you or anyone else shows me this "Otherverse" of which you speak.

twoshots
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,731
Location: Boötes void

01 Oct 2008, 6:16 pm

Fnord wrote:

There is nothing metaphysical or religious about the article in question. It takes a phenomenon, a model, and offers an explanation in a quite conservative way.

_________________
* here for the nachos.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,953
Location:

01 Oct 2008, 6:23 pm

twoshots wrote:

Fnord wrote:

There is nothing metaphysical or religious about the article in question. It takes a phenomenon, a model, and offers an explanation in a quite conservative way.

Offering an explanation is one thing, as everyone is entitled to their opinion. Asserting that the explanation describes Things As They Really Are without valid material evidence to back it up is as much an act of stupidity as claiming that the world is ruled by elephants just because someone found a peanut lying on the sidewalk.

I am sorry that my point of view upsets so many people, but having been taken in by unfounded claims more than a few times has left a virtual sore spot in my life, and I'll be damned before I get taken in again!

Haliphron
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,980

01 Oct 2008, 6:26 pm

Fnord wrote:

twoshots wrote:

Fnord wrote:

There is nothing metaphysical or religious about the article in question. It takes a phenomenon, a model, and offers an explanation in a quite conservative way.

Very well then, Fnord. You may have your opinion and I shall have mine. But you see I am Not claiming my opinion to be fact whereas when you start with "There is no....." thats the way you come across.

Page 3 of 4 [ 54 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Jump to:

guess what! there is something more then the universe! Post Reply New Topic

guess what! there is something more then the universe!