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Pacifism, Pt 2

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Dox47
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28 Jan 2009, 4:10 am

Pacifism is a great virtue in others, it makes things so much easier for those of us not so afflicted. For me it falls into that category of things that would be great if everyone did them, but human nature being what it is makes it impossible. It's sort of a Prisoner's Dilemma, where everyone would be better off cooperating, but the temptation to betray is just too much. I live my life by a philosophy of my own devising using situational ethics, which are much more fluid and adaptable to everyday life than any sort of absolutism. I also don't believe in letting the most belligerent party "win" simply because they are feared, so pacifism just doesn't hold any appeal to me.


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slowmutant
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28 Jan 2009, 6:33 am

Dox47 wrote:
Pacifism is a great virtue in others, it makes things so much easier for those of us not so afflicted. For me it falls into that category of things that would be great if everyone did them, but human nature being what it is makes it impossible. It's sort of a Prisoner's Dilemma, where everyone would be better off cooperating, but the temptation to betray is just too much. I live my life by a philosophy of my own devising using situational ethics, which are much more fluid and adaptable to everyday life than any sort of absolutism. I also don't believe in letting the most belligerent party "win" simply because they are feared, so pacifism just doesn't hold any appeal to me.


Dox, your honesty is refreshing.



blackelk
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28 Jan 2009, 6:49 am

slowmutant wrote:
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Pacifism can be suicidal and irrational


More suicidal & irrational than violence? :chin:


Sometimes. Any peace isn't better than any war.

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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.

A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.


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slowmutant
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28 Jan 2009, 6:51 am

Quote:
Any peace isn't better than any war.


Are you American?



blackelk
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28 Jan 2009, 7:07 am

slowmutant wrote:
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Any peace isn't better than any war.


Are you American?


Of course. But what does that have to do with anything?



slowmutant
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28 Jan 2009, 7:23 am

blackelk wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
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Any peace isn't better than any war.


Are you American?


Of course. But what does that have to do with anything?


I was wondering at your attitude towards "any peace" and "any war."



ruveyn
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28 Jan 2009, 8:02 am

hurricaneseye wrote:
Dear All

Do any of you know of any good pacifist weblinks? Such as forums, stores, blogs, organisations/charities, etc? I'm really not looking for an arguement here. I just need some weblinks.

Thanks


Pacifists are, in a sense, parasitical. Time after time people who are willing to fight save their sorry asses so that they can poo poo fighting. There is little we can do about pacifists other than ignore them and not permit them to interfere with the fight when the fight is necessary.

Having said this, I believe it is foolish to fight when there are peaceful alternatives. But sometimes there are not peaceful alternatives. What else could we do when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor except to strike back. What else could we do when Nazi Germany declared war on us, Dec 11, 1941. Given our geographical position the only course of action was to come to England's aid and make common cause with the Brits. Britain became an "aircraft carrier" for American bombers and a jump off point for the invasion of Europe.

I am glad American soldiers went to fight (including two of my uncles). If they had not done so I might have ended up as a cake of soap on some Nazi's bathroom sink. One of my uncles was a bombardier in the 8-th Air Force. He was Hitler's worst nightmare, a Jew with a Norden bomb sight and 5 tons of high explosive.

ruveyn



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28 Jan 2009, 8:08 am

ruveyn wrote:
hurricaneseye wrote:
Dear All

Do any of you know of any good pacifist weblinks? Such as forums, stores, blogs, organisations/charities, etc? I'm really not looking for an arguement here. I just need some weblinks.

Thanks


Pacifists are, in a sense, parasitical. Time after time people who are willing to fight save their sorry asses so that they can poo poo fighting. There is little we can do about pacifists other than ignore them and not permit them to interfere with the fight when the fight is necessary.

Having said this, I believe it is foolish to fight when there are peaceful alternatives. But sometimes there are not peaceful alternatives. What else could we do when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor except to strike back. What else could we do when Nazi Germany declared war on us, Dec 11, 1941. Given our geographical position the only course of action was to come to England's aid and make common cause with the Brits. Britain became an "aircraft carrier" for American bombers and a jump off point for the invasion of Europe.

I am glad American soldiers went to fight (including two of my uncles). If they had not done so I might have ended up as a cake of soap on some Nazi's bathroom sink. One of my uncles was a bombardier in the 8-th Air Force. He was Hitler's worst nightmare, a Jew with a Norden bomb sight and 5 tons of high explosive.

ruveyn


You've contradicted yourself. And you know who is really parasitical ... ?



ruveyn
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28 Jan 2009, 8:15 am

slowmutant wrote:

You've contradicted yourself. And you know who is really parasitical ... ?


How so, asswipe? I did my bit for King and County. Some of the cruise missiles that used control and terrain guidance systems that I helped to design kill our enemies. Indirectly, I have scalps on my belt. If I were not afflicted with chronic bronchial asthma I would have been accepted for military service and done some the killing first hand. By what is, is. I did my bit by being a weapon smith for the active warriors. Those who thrust the spear, loose the arrow and wield the sword need craftsmen to make the spears, arrows and swords. That was me.

What have YOU done? What's in yer wallet?

ruveyn



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28 Jan 2009, 8:34 am

Are you kidding? I captured Rudolph Hess personally.

Uphill both ways. In the rain.

I also did my homework on the back of a shovel.



Sand
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28 Jan 2009, 2:29 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Are you kidding? I captured Rudolph Hess personally.

Uphill both ways. In the rain.

I also did my homework on the back of a shovel.


You're obviously pretty good with a shovel.



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28 Jan 2009, 3:32 pm

ruveyn wrote:
slowmutant wrote:

You've contradicted yourself. And you know who is really parasitical ... ?


How so, asswipe? I did my bit for King and County. Some of the cruise missiles that used control and terrain guidance systems that I helped to design kill our enemies. Indirectly, I have scalps on my belt. If I were not afflicted with chronic bronchial asthma I would have been accepted for military service and done some the killing first hand. By what is, is. I did my bit by being a weapon smith for the active warriors. Those who thrust the spear, loose the arrow and wield the sword need craftsmen to make the spears, arrows and swords. That was me.

What have YOU done? What's in yer wallet?

ruveyn

Killing people to make a living seems far more parasitical than trying your damdest to life peacefully, you talk about killing your enemies, I think you should look at the circumstances that made them your enemies in the first place then maybe you can bring about peace, because you sure wont get it by blowing up civilians


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ruveyn
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28 Jan 2009, 3:38 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
slowmutant wrote:

Killing people to make a living seems far more parasitical than trying your damdest to life peacefully, you talk about killing your enemies, I think you should look at the circumstances that made them your enemies in the first place then maybe you can bring about peace, because you sure wont get it by blowing up civilians


Since when is killing to defend self, family and country a parasitic undertaking? In a peaceful world I would live peacefully and gladly at that. But the world is not peaceful, is it? In fact it currently is a bad neighborhood. You can make your snide remarks because warriors have put their lives on the line to provide you with the freedom to do so.

ruveyn



ruveyn
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28 Jan 2009, 3:39 pm

slowmutant wrote:
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Pacifism can be suicidal and irrational


More suicidal & irrational than violence? :chin:


When is fighting an enemy that attacks us suicidal? Surrendering is more suicidal.

ruveyn



DentArthurDent
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28 Jan 2009, 4:13 pm

ruveyn wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
slowmutant wrote:

Killing people to make a living seems far more parasitical than trying your damdest to life peacefully, you talk about killing your enemies, I think you should look at the circumstances that made them your enemies in the first place then maybe you can bring about peace, because you sure wont get it by blowing up civilians


Since when is killing to defend self, family and country a parasitic undertaking? In a peaceful world I would live peacefully and gladly at that. But the world is not peaceful, is it? In fact it currently is a bad neighborhood. You can make your snide remarks because warriors have put their lives on the line to provide you with the freedom to do so.

ruveyn


Fool


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ruveyn
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28 Jan 2009, 4:54 pm

slowmutant wrote:
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Pacifism can be suicidal and irrational


More suicidal & irrational than violence? :chin:


Do you know how we dealt with Japanese and German violence? With American violence. Ours was better and we won. Now Japan and Germany are well behaved. Isn't it marvelous what violence can accomplish?

ruveyn