Since when did this place became all debate and troll happy?

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sinsboldly
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27 Mar 2009, 11:41 am

b9 wrote:

sinsboldly wrote:

ascan wrote:

b9 wrote:

i do not understand fully why there is a worry about so called "trolls"...

It's because many people can't control their emotions, and so find it easier for a moderator to suppress what's annoying them, rather than them simply just ignoring it.

actually, that is not even close to what we look for, ascan. It will never do to disseminate non factual information.

this is the definition of a troll that I use, B9.
troll:
Posting derogatory messages about sensitive subjects on newsgroups and chat rooms to bait users into responding.

as you can see it has nothing to do with emotions, nor suppression. It is about those that seek only dissension and disruption, hoping to manipulate one member against the other, rather than furthering discussion and unity within the community.

WP is fortunate, because trolls are dealt with by that same community long before the moderators step in. And then, those same members send a quick PM to our growing number of moderators and poof. . .gone!

I hope that helps you understand why trolls or trolling are not allowed on WP, B9.

Merle

i never said it had anything to do with emotion or suppression. i think you are responding to "ascan" only maybe. i do not endorse what people who reply to me say until i judge it, and i have not judged it yet.

if what i wrote in my preceding post was wrong, then please delete it if you think it should be deleted.
you are a better judge than me.
i do not wish to create contention.

I am sorry if I was confusing. Indeed, I was responding to ascan's post as well as yours.
Although moderators have the right and sometimes the duty to delete or edit member's posts but we very rarely delete and when we edit, we mention who did it and sometimes why.

Asking question about trolling is not trolling, B9. Ask away!

Merle

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ascan
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27 Mar 2009, 12:08 pm

sinsboldly wrote:

ascan wrote:

b9 wrote:

i do not understand fully why there is a worry about so called "trolls"...

It's because many people can't control their emotions, and so find it easier for a moderator to suppress what's annoying them, rather than them simply just ignoring it.

actually, that is not even close to what we look for, ascan. It will never do to disseminate non factual information.

I'm merely pointing-out why many people make such an issue over "trolls"; I'm not attempting to define what you look for. However, whilst I'm here, I'll add that I find encouraging a "grass" (as in informer) culture disturbing. It's open to abuse.

sinsboldly
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27 Mar 2009, 12:21 pm

ascan wrote:

sinsboldly wrote:

ascan wrote:

b9 wrote:

i do not understand fully why there is a worry about so called "trolls"...

It's because many people can't control their emotions, and so find it easier for a moderator to suppress what's annoying them, rather than them simply just ignoring it.

actually, that is not even close to what we look for, ascan. It will never do to disseminate non factual information.

so, let me get this straight. Are you saying that trolls and community members should unite against moderators so the trolls can control the community?

Merle

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ascan
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27 Mar 2009, 12:37 pm

sinsboldly wrote:

so, let me get this straight. Are you saying that trolls and community members should unite against moderators so the trolls can control the community?

I'm saying no such thing. I really have no great objection to the way you run this place. Strangely enough, I'm usually quite defensive of your actions, here, when they're criticised elsewhere. It's just that I'm uneasy about the practice of encouraging informants. Even more so when it comes to something as ill-defined as "trolling". Obviously if someone is here causing major trouble, then a quick PM to a moderator would be reasonable, but you seem to be encouraging something beyond that. Anyway, I'm only giving an opinion. Make of it what you will.

sinsboldly
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27 Mar 2009, 12:51 pm

ascan wrote:

sinsboldly wrote:

so, let me get this straight. Are you saying that trolls and community members should unite against moderators so the trolls can control the community?

when members PM a mod, then the mod brings the issue to all the mods and it is discussed and watched or dealt with immediately. One moderator is not infallible so we work with the issue between ourselves . The moderators dislike disconnecting anyone from WP, even members with trollish behaviour, so we work with them to understand why it is disruption to the community. Recalcitrant trolls are (as Quatermass puts it) exterminated immediately.

Merle

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makuranososhi
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27 Mar 2009, 12:53 pm

I don't anything more than a quick PM is being encouraged here, ascan - would you mind showing me where that was implied, as I cannot find it. Another reason for the request is that by publicly engaging trolls or accusing innocent people of being trolls, it can quickly escalate a situation... by contacting a moderator, the issue can be addressed quickly without stirring up unnecessary muck. You're right in that any system can be abused, which is why I think it is important to be a balance of moderator observation and membership involvement. Just my two bits -

M.

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27 Mar 2009, 12:58 pm

sinsboldly wrote:

this is the definition of a troll that I use, B9.
troll:
Posting derogatory messages about sensitive subjects on newsgroups and chat rooms to bait users into responding.

Hm. Derogatory is subjective, and some people regard any criticism of their position as derogatory. PPR, by definition, would include discussions in which one poster rejects another's views and puts those views down as being incorrect. Also, most topics in PPR would tend to be about "sensitive subjects." And, I think any post is intended to be responded to, and you are just putting a negative spin on it by referring to it as "baiting."

So basically, your definition of troll is necessarily synonymous with "PPR frequenter." I also think you are using some weasel words to conceal the rather arbitrary underlying notion of "trolling."

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sinsboldly
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27 Mar 2009, 1:04 pm

Orwell wrote:

sinsboldly wrote:

this is the definition of a troll that I use, B9.
troll:
Posting derogatory messages about sensitive subjects on newsgroups and chat rooms to bait users into responding.

I did not write the definition and I am not limited to your defintion of the words.

Merle

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ascan
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27 Mar 2009, 1:04 pm

makuranososhi wrote:

I don't anything more than a quick PM is being encouraged here, ascan - would you mind showing me where that was implied, as I cannot find it...

It's what constitutes a reason for sending that PM. That hinges around the definition of "troll", a word meaning different things to different people. Read what I've written. Read what Orwell's written, and think on it.

makuranososhi
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27 Mar 2009, 1:11 pm

ascan wrote:

makuranososhi wrote:

I don't anything more than a quick PM is being encouraged here, ascan - would you mind showing me where that was implied, as I cannot find it...

I have read what was written, and I've thought before posting. Just because someone sends a PM doesn't not equate to there being a violation or action being taken; thus the role of a moderator reviewing the situation on a case-by-case basis. The definition that is most frequently used has already been shared here... the role of agent provocateur with a destructive basis in agitation and upset.

M.

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27 Mar 2009, 2:19 pm

sinsboldly wrote:

I did not write the definition and I am not limited to your defintion of the words.

well, the issue is not about who wrote the definition, but that said definition is being used as a means to identify who a troll is in this website, given its ambiguous nature, Orwell has a valid point against that definiton, "derogatory messages about sensitive subjects" doesn't say that much and it is subjected to different interpretations according to different views and state of emotions from the reader, hence subjective, which I believe moderators here have been aware of this as I have noticed that not all complains fit the crime. Not only that, but there is the issue of PC, and someone coming up with a un-PC opinion, sometimes they get accused of being trolls for that, by few members participating in a discussion. Nevertheless, behaviour of provoking an unpleasent reaction to members or one member "for the lols" insulting and disrupting the discussion does happen, the issue is as Tallyman says, sometimes it can be difficult to tell the difference.

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sinsboldly
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27 Mar 2009, 3:04 pm

greenblue wrote:

sinsboldly wrote:

I did not write the definition and I am not limited to your defintion of the words.

As I posted before, it is rarely one moderators decision of what is being a troll.

sinsboldly wrote:

When members PM a mod, then the mod brings the issue to all the mods and it is discussed and watched or dealt with immediately. One moderator is not infallible so we work with the issue between ourselves . The moderators dislike disconnecting anyone from WP, even members with trollish behaviour, so we work with them to understand why it is disruption to the community. Recalcitrant trolls are (as Quatermass puts it) exterminated immediately.

Merle

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pandd
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27 Mar 2009, 4:01 pm

TallyMan wrote:

I agree members should not call each others trolls in open posting. However, I think the mods would soon get fed up of being notified about every wacko poster who may or may not be a troll just because their posts were weird, extreme or irrational.

There is the option of not responding. It is not necessary to respond in-thread to posters you believe are simply trolling (intentionally disrupting the community), and if it's not important enough to inform a moderator, then it's not important enough to disrupt the forum by responding publicly.

I am not calling for everyone to PM moderators at the drop of a typo or any hint of eccentric opinion; my concern lies with those who rather than PMing moderators, choose to take matters into their own hands "vigilante" style by publicly accusing others of being a troll, and/or attempting to rustle up a "troll hunting" posse/pitchfork wielding mob. The latter risks disruption to the forums and to other (genuine) members of the forum, while enabling and encouraging the troll by giving them exactly what they want - disruption and attention.

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27 Mar 2009, 4:56 pm

I think the issue with so called trolls is really about what damage can be caused. Someone doing damage, and intentionally doing it, needs to be dealt with.

I've posted in the past on forums with obvious character trolls, and they are harmless. Some find them amusing, others not, but the point is they are careful to be silly and maybe offensive but never damaging. Other so called trolls are intentionally trying to play with people's minds, and they can and do cause real harm beyound the posts we see on the internet.

It gets very dfficult to know from one encounter what you are facing with a trollish seeming poster. In which case, I think it is appropriate to seek feed back from moderators. That isn't a spying system, it's cooperative.

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