a men's forum?
iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius
02 Mar 2011, 1:02 pm
DW_a_mom wrote:
murphycop wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
The same good that comes of having a women's forum.
I don't think that this has been demonstrated. It might seem axiomatic, but Alex's experience suggests that this is not the case. And that, I think, justifies raising the bar.
Quote:
I thought that men and women really had equal rights here.
They do. The existence of a dedicated forum is not an expression of rights or equality. It's a demonstration of responding to an demonstrable need. Straight men have the same right as women, teens, kids, GLBT members and lefthanded redheads to petition for a forum. But they do not have the right to the same answer if they cannot demonstrate the same need.
Thats how it should be, but its not the case. Could you honestly see the women's forum being shut down, if the same kind of "flamming" occured on there? I reckon the thread in question would just get moved to the PPR or locked.
I doubt the forum got shut down over one thread that had to be moved. It must have been more persistent.
I believe that any forum that devolved into more trouble than it was worth would be discarded. Yes, seriously.
Question is this though: ought the solution (the shutting down of a forum) due to a crisis in the past (The Great Flame Wars or whatever) be continued on to all generations of WP denizens indefinitely? Should everyone throughout the timeline be punished equally for the abuses by others of the past?
02 Mar 2011, 1:17 pm
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
murphycop wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
The same good that comes of having a women's forum.
I don't think that this has been demonstrated. It might seem axiomatic, but Alex's experience suggests that this is not the case. And that, I think, justifies raising the bar.
Quote:
I thought that men and women really had equal rights here.
They do. The existence of a dedicated forum is not an expression of rights or equality. It's a demonstration of responding to an demonstrable need. Straight men have the same right as women, teens, kids, GLBT members and lefthanded redheads to petition for a forum. But they do not have the right to the same answer if they cannot demonstrate the same need.
Thats how it should be, but its not the case. Could you honestly see the women's forum being shut down, if the same kind of "flamming" occured on there? I reckon the thread in question would just get moved to the PPR or locked.
I doubt the forum got shut down over one thread that had to be moved. It must have been more persistent.
I believe that any forum that devolved into more trouble than it was worth would be discarded. Yes, seriously.
Question is this though: ought the solution (the shutting down of a forum) due to a crisis in the past (The Great Flame Wars or whatever) be continued on to all generations of WP denizens indefinitely? Should everyone throughout the timeline be punished equally for the abuses by others of the past?
If it was my call I'd try it again, to be honest. But it isn't my call. Alex has exclusive rights to make these decisions, period, and I doubt you'll hear more from him on this topic than you already have. People can aruge until they're blue in the face but the only audience that matters is Alex. I will say this: in my observation, telling Alex that he is acting unfair or wrong is not the way to get the results you are looking for. I've tried to steer you all away from that angle, but maybe you need me to more blunt about it, so there it is. Yes, a few better arguments have made it into the requests, but they are drowned out by the noise, so I don't know they are even reaching the ears they are meant for.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
Last edited by DW_a_mom on 02 Mar 2011, 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
02 Mar 2011, 1:25 pm
Mark198423 wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
The existence of a dedicated forum is not an expression of rights or equality. It's a demonstration of responding to an demonstrable need. Straight men have the same right as women, teens, kids, GLBT members and lefthanded redheads to petition for a forum. But they do not have the right to the same answer if they cannot demonstrate the same need.
The need for an LGBT subforum was not demonstrated, more demanded. It was also supported by less people than a Men's forum (I'm personally not a supporter of any sex or sexuality based forums but can't ignore the double-standards people use on this issue) yet has been created. At this point there are 49 threads within LGBT and a number of those were moved there on it's creation, I'm certain a Men's forum would fill up much quicker than that and therefore demonstrate a much bigger need.
I think thats something very important that has to be looked at. Well everything you've posted here.
_________________
'Ave we had a national f**king stroke!??
02 Mar 2011, 1:27 pm
murphycop wrote:
Mark198423 wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
The existence of a dedicated forum is not an expression of rights or equality. It's a demonstration of responding to an demonstrable need. Straight men have the same right as women, teens, kids, GLBT members and lefthanded redheads to petition for a forum. But they do not have the right to the same answer if they cannot demonstrate the same need.
The need for an LGBT subforum was not demonstrated, more demanded. It was also supported by less people than a Men's forum (I'm personally not a supporter of any sex or sexuality based forums but can't ignore the double-standards people use on this issue) yet has been created. At this point there are 49 threads within LGBT and a number of those were moved there on it's creation, I'm certain a Men's forum would fill up much quicker than that and therefore demonstrate a much bigger need.
I think thats something very important that has to be looked at. Well everything you've posted here.
The original request was a request, and it was well argued. Alex then posted that he agreed with the idea. I think the sense of demand only came when it took so long to see the perceived promise implemented.
I'd drop the idea of using LGBT in your arguments, however. It's noise. See my post above.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
Last edited by DW_a_mom on 02 Mar 2011, 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
02 Mar 2011, 1:28 pm
DW_a_mom wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
murphycop wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
The same good that comes of having a women's forum.
I don't think that this has been demonstrated. It might seem axiomatic, but Alex's experience suggests that this is not the case. And that, I think, justifies raising the bar.
Quote:
I thought that men and women really had equal rights here.
They do. The existence of a dedicated forum is not an expression of rights or equality. It's a demonstration of responding to an demonstrable need. Straight men have the same right as women, teens, kids, GLBT members and lefthanded redheads to petition for a forum. But they do not have the right to the same answer if they cannot demonstrate the same need.
Thats how it should be, but its not the case. Could you honestly see the women's forum being shut down, if the same kind of "flamming" occured on there? I reckon the thread in question would just get moved to the PPR or locked.
I doubt the forum got shut down over one thread that had to be moved. It must have been more persistent.
I believe that any forum that devolved into more trouble than it was worth would be discarded. Yes, seriously.
Question is this though: ought the solution (the shutting down of a forum) due to a crisis in the past (The Great Flame Wars or whatever) be continued on to all generations of WP denizens indefinitely? Should everyone throughout the timeline be punished equally for the abuses by others of the past?
If it was my call I'd try it again, to be honest. But it isn't my call. Alex has exclusive rights to make these decisions, period, and I doubt you'll hear more from him on this topic than you already have. People can aruge until they're blue in the face but the only audience that matters is Alex. I will say this: in my observation, telling Alex that he is acting unfair or wrong is not the way to get the results you are looking for. I've tried to steer you all away from that angle, but maybe you need me to more blunt about it, so there it is. Yes, a few better arguments have made it into the requests, but they are drowned out by the noise, so I don't know they are even reaching the ears they are meant for.
I'm pretty certain that tactic would've worked to get the GBLT forum, and if the men's, women's forums situation was switched.
_________________
'Ave we had a national f**king stroke!??
02 Mar 2011, 1:30 pm
DW_a_mom wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Mark198423 wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
The existence of a dedicated forum is not an expression of rights or equality. It's a demonstration of responding to an demonstrable need. Straight men have the same right as women, teens, kids, GLBT members and lefthanded redheads to petition for a forum. But they do not have the right to the same answer if they cannot demonstrate the same need.
The need for an LGBT subforum was not demonstrated, more demanded. It was also supported by less people than a Men's forum (I'm personally not a supporter of any sex or sexuality based forums but can't ignore the double-standards people use on this issue) yet has been created. At this point there are 49 threads within LGBT and a number of those were moved there on it's creation, I'm certain a Men's forum would fill up much quicker than that and therefore demonstrate a much bigger need.
I think thats something very important that has to be looked at. Well everything you've posted here.
The original request was a request, and it was well argued. Alex then posted that he agreed with the idea. I think the sense of demand only came when it took so long to see the perceived promise implemented.
I'd drop the idea of using LGBT in your arguments, however. It's noise. See my post above.
So long? How long have people been requesting a men's forum for?
Well thats just your opinion.
_________________
'Ave we had a national f**king stroke!??
02 Mar 2011, 1:31 pm
murphycop wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
murphycop wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
The same good that comes of having a women's forum.
I don't think that this has been demonstrated. It might seem axiomatic, but Alex's experience suggests that this is not the case. And that, I think, justifies raising the bar.
Quote:
I thought that men and women really had equal rights here.
They do. The existence of a dedicated forum is not an expression of rights or equality. It's a demonstration of responding to an demonstrable need. Straight men have the same right as women, teens, kids, GLBT members and lefthanded redheads to petition for a forum. But they do not have the right to the same answer if they cannot demonstrate the same need.
Thats how it should be, but its not the case. Could you honestly see the women's forum being shut down, if the same kind of "flamming" occured on there? I reckon the thread in question would just get moved to the PPR or locked.
I doubt the forum got shut down over one thread that had to be moved. It must have been more persistent.
I believe that any forum that devolved into more trouble than it was worth would be discarded. Yes, seriously.
Question is this though: ought the solution (the shutting down of a forum) due to a crisis in the past (The Great Flame Wars or whatever) be continued on to all generations of WP denizens indefinitely? Should everyone throughout the timeline be punished equally for the abuses by others of the past?
If it was my call I'd try it again, to be honest. But it isn't my call. Alex has exclusive rights to make these decisions, period, and I doubt you'll hear more from him on this topic than you already have. People can aruge until they're blue in the face but the only audience that matters is Alex. I will say this: in my observation, telling Alex that he is acting unfair or wrong is not the way to get the results you are looking for. I've tried to steer you all away from that angle, but maybe you need me to more blunt about it, so there it is. Yes, a few better arguments have made it into the requests, but they are drowned out by the noise, so I don't know they are even reaching the ears they are meant for.
I'm pretty certain that tactic would've worked to get the GBLT forum, and if the men's, women's forums situation was switched.
Fine. You are showing that you have given up on the idea of actually getting the forum, or maybe that was never your intention in the first place. You are showing that your need to complain trumps the idea of getting your request listened to. At least now everyone knows your intentions.
For those who seriously want to pursue the suggestion, I recommend waiting until this thread is dead and gone.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
02 Mar 2011, 1:38 pm
DW_a_mom wrote:
murphycop wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
murphycop wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
The same good that comes of having a women's forum.
I don't think that this has been demonstrated. It might seem axiomatic, but Alex's experience suggests that this is not the case. And that, I think, justifies raising the bar.
Quote:
I thought that men and women really had equal rights here.
They do. The existence of a dedicated forum is not an expression of rights or equality. It's a demonstration of responding to an demonstrable need. Straight men have the same right as women, teens, kids, GLBT members and lefthanded redheads to petition for a forum. But they do not have the right to the same answer if they cannot demonstrate the same need.
Thats how it should be, but its not the case. Could you honestly see the women's forum being shut down, if the same kind of "flamming" occured on there? I reckon the thread in question would just get moved to the PPR or locked.
I doubt the forum got shut down over one thread that had to be moved. It must have been more persistent.
I believe that any forum that devolved into more trouble than it was worth would be discarded. Yes, seriously.
Question is this though: ought the solution (the shutting down of a forum) due to a crisis in the past (The Great Flame Wars or whatever) be continued on to all generations of WP denizens indefinitely? Should everyone throughout the timeline be punished equally for the abuses by others of the past?
If it was my call I'd try it again, to be honest. But it isn't my call. Alex has exclusive rights to make these decisions, period, and I doubt you'll hear more from him on this topic than you already have. People can aruge until they're blue in the face but the only audience that matters is Alex. I will say this: in my observation, telling Alex that he is acting unfair or wrong is not the way to get the results you are looking for. I've tried to steer you all away from that angle, but maybe you need me to more blunt about it, so there it is. Yes, a few better arguments have made it into the requests, but they are drowned out by the noise, so I don't know they are even reaching the ears they are meant for.
I'm pretty certain that tactic would've worked to get the GBLT forum, and if the men's, women's forums situation was switched.
Fine. You are showing that you have given up on the idea of actually getting the forum, or maybe that was never your intention in the first place. You are showing that your need to complain trumps the idea of getting your request listened to. At least now everyone knows your intentions.
For those who seriously want to pursue the suggestion, I recommend waiting until this thread is dead and gone.
I've only said there should be a men's forum, cause there is a women's forum. But the guys have made some good points. I'm just pointing out the double standards, which aren't fair. If you don't think stopping double standards is a good enough reason, then again thats your opinion.
Why would they wait, what better thread t pursue the suggestion, than- "a men's forum"? I'll stop posting in the thread, if its not helping their cause. And that seems to be the case. Double standards are acceptable on this site, when applied to the right category.
_________________
'Ave we had a national f**king stroke!??
02 Mar 2011, 2:05 pm
murphycop wrote:
I've only said there should be a men's forum, cause there is a women's forum. But the guys have made some good points. I'm just pointing out the double standards, which aren't fair. If you don't think stopping double standards is a good enough reason, then again thats your opinion.
Why would they wait, what better thread t pursue the suggestion, than- "a men's forum"? I'll stop posting in the thread, if its not helping their cause. And that seems to be the case. Double standards are acceptable on this site, when applied to the right category.
Why would they wait, what better thread t pursue the suggestion, than- "a men's forum"? I'll stop posting in the thread, if its not helping their cause. And that seems to be the case. Double standards are acceptable on this site, when applied to the right category.
I'm sorry you feel like there is a double standard, but since this is a privately owned website I guess I don't understand the point in harping on it (and, as previously explained, I don't see it that way anyway). I'm a pragmatist: you do what gets you the results you want, and you see what you can do to gently persuade people to change their views if they hold views you believe are harmful. Sometimes putting a glaring highlighter pen onto something helps mobilize action, and sometimes it doesn't. So you're a glaring highlighter kind of a guy; the problem is, you've drawn the highlight, people have looked, and it hasn't sparked a fire. It isn't going to spark a fire, in my opinion and, even if it did, would that accomplish the goal? Seems it won't, so move on. Find a cause more appropriate for a big, thick highlighter pen; plenty exist.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
02 Mar 2011, 6:56 pm
DW_a_mom wrote:
murphycop wrote:
I've only said there should be a men's forum, cause there is a women's forum. But the guys have made some good points. I'm just pointing out the double standards, which aren't fair. If you don't think stopping double standards is a good enough reason, then again thats your opinion.
Why would they wait, what better thread t pursue the suggestion, than- "a men's forum"? I'll stop posting in the thread, if its not helping their cause. And that seems to be the case. Double standards are acceptable on this site, when applied to the right category.
Why would they wait, what better thread t pursue the suggestion, than- "a men's forum"? I'll stop posting in the thread, if its not helping their cause. And that seems to be the case. Double standards are acceptable on this site, when applied to the right category.
I'm sorry you feel like there is a double standard, but since this is a privately owned website I guess I don't understand the point in harping on it (and, as previously explained, I don't see it that way anyway). I'm a pragmatist: you do what gets you the results you want, and you see what you can do to gently persuade people to change their views if they hold views you believe are harmful. Sometimes putting a glaring highlighter pen onto something helps mobilize action, and sometimes it doesn't. So you're a glaring highlighter kind of a guy; the problem is, you've drawn the highlight, people have looked, and it hasn't sparked a fire. It isn't going to spark a fire, in my opinion and, even if it did, would that accomplish the goal? Seems it won't, so move on. Find a cause more appropriate for a big, thick highlighter pen; plenty exist.
Well maybe its an aspie thing that a lot of people can't see the double standards. And i'm not the only one that sees them. Just cause its a minority of people that can actually see the double standards, does that make them wrong? I thought the site was all about minorites. The double standards are their for people to see, if people wish to ignore them, thats their choice. If they can't see them, they're blind.
_________________
'Ave we had a national f**king stroke!??
02 Mar 2011, 7:07 pm
I am giving you all a chance to show Alex that a Men's forum can be used. Instead of arguing about it, show him what you would discuss and how you would behave. This is the best deal anyone reading this request can offer.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt153669.html
Have at it. I expect it to be filled with scintillatiing discussion very soon.
_________________
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
02 Mar 2011, 7:12 pm
MidlifeAspie wrote:
I am giving you all a chance to show Alex that a Men's forum can be used. Instead of arguing about it, show him what you would discuss and how you would behave. This is the best deal anyone reading this request can offer.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt153669.html
Have at it. I expect it to be filled with scintillatiing discussion very soon.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt153669.html
Have at it. I expect it to be filled with scintillatiing discussion very soon.
I don't know if thats a genuine attempt or not. But its seems to be quite patronizing. Lets all watch the men discuss things and see if this experiment works. All the questions about why there should be a men's forum. We could just talk about anything we like, like they do in the women's forum. There are loads of threads in there that aren't women's threads at all. Example:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt128343.html
If a thread like this was posted in another thread, it would get moved to the right one.
_________________
'Ave we had a national f**king stroke!??
02 Mar 2011, 8:50 pm
murphycop wrote:
MidlifeAspie wrote:
I am giving you all a chance to show Alex that a Men's forum can be used. Instead of arguing about it, show him what you would discuss and how you would behave. This is the best deal anyone reading this request can offer.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt153669.html
Have at it. I expect it to be filled with scintillatiing discussion very soon.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt153669.html
Have at it. I expect it to be filled with scintillatiing discussion very soon.
I don't know if thats a genuine attempt or not. But its seems to be quite patronizing. Lets all watch the men discuss things and see if this experiment works. All the questions about why there should be a men's forum. We could just talk about anything we like, like they do in the women's forum. There are loads of threads in there that aren't women's threads at all. Example:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt128343.html
If a thread like this was posted in another thread, it would get moved to the right one.
It's not patronizing. It's the best he can offer, and it is what he is doing for his own forum request, the one he's been asking for since he joined and long before Alex made him a mod.
Can you put the cap on your highlighter pen for a while, please? The point on that thing seems to cause a lot of collateral damage.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
Last edited by DW_a_mom on 02 Mar 2011, 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
02 Mar 2011, 8:53 pm
DW_a_mom wrote:
murphycop wrote:
MidlifeAspie wrote:
I am giving you all a chance to show Alex that a Men's forum can be used. Instead of arguing about it, show him what you would discuss and how you would behave. This is the best deal anyone reading this request can offer.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt153669.html
Have at it. I expect it to be filled with scintillatiing discussion very soon.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt153669.html
Have at it. I expect it to be filled with scintillatiing discussion very soon.
I don't know if thats a genuine attempt or not. But its seems to be quite patronizing. Lets all watch the men discuss things and see if this experiment works. All the questions about why there should be a men's forum. We could just talk about anything we like, like they do in the women's forum. There are loads of threads in there that aren't women's threads at all. Example:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt128343.html
If a thread like this was posted in another thread, it would get moved to the right one.
It's not patronizing. It's the best he can offer, and it is what he is doing for his own forum request, the one he's been asking for since he joined and long before Alex made him a mod.
It just seemed that way. If it is genuine, its a nice thought. But I still don't think it'll work that way. Trying to pretend we're posting in the men's forum.
_________________
'Ave we had a national f**king stroke!??
iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius
02 Mar 2011, 8:53 pm
DW_a_mom wrote:
murphycop wrote:
MidlifeAspie wrote:
I am giving you all a chance to show Alex that a Men's forum can be used. Instead of arguing about it, show him what you would discuss and how you would behave. This is the best deal anyone reading this request can offer.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt153669.html
Have at it. I expect it to be filled with scintillatiing discussion very soon.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt153669.html
Have at it. I expect it to be filled with scintillatiing discussion very soon.
I don't know if thats a genuine attempt or not. But its seems to be quite patronizing. Lets all watch the men discuss things and see if this experiment works. All the questions about why there should be a men's forum. We could just talk about anything we like, like they do in the women's forum. There are loads of threads in there that aren't women's threads at all. Example:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt128343.html
If a thread like this was posted in another thread, it would get moved to the right one.
It's not patronizing. It's the best he can offer, and it is what he is doing for his own forum request, the one he's been asking for since he joined and long before Alex made him a mod.
Yeah, it is the best any moderator can offer. Only bulletin board administrators can add or remove new fora to the board, so a stationary thread as a trial run (prior to showing Alex that it has potential) is really the most a person with solely moderation tools can do.
