Should we pull support from Israel?

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I agree for the most part except...

I have yet to meet an Israeli who isn't one arrogant racist son of a b***h..., peace j

I think much of Palestinian agression towards the US is because we play favorites towards Israel. I don't think that's the entire reason they hate us, but it's a significant part of it. I don't support us getting into other nations' business either though. Israel is our allie, so in some situations it's ok for us to back them to some extent, but we should be more rational in realizing what actions we are supporting from the Isrealis, and in situations where Israel might not be in the right, we should not support them. If theyr in the right, by all mean, continue supporting them.
But I doubt it's as clear cut as "these are the good guys and those are the bad guys". Much like it is here with the liberals and conservatives, each side probably has some points and some faults. In retrospect I say we should just leave all of the middle east alone, including Israel. But, we should remain on stand-by for if the arab nations ever decided to gang up on Israel, so we could help protect them.
As for peace negotiations, I think an international peace keeping force (other than the evil UN blue helmets) should be created and dispatched, along with organizations like Peace Corps to act in support.

next solution is war against israel for crimes against humanity and the theft of land away from another country.


the genocide of the palestinians is not acceptable.


but whatever, you're brainwashed by the israeli controlled media.

I can see that there is a hugely powerful lobby that puts the interests of Israel over the interests of the US. But there’s nothing unique about these people refusing to put the interests of their country of residence first. The pro-Israel lobby in the US just has more power and influence than the others. AIPAC has more power and influence than CAIR or La Raza. None of them puts the interests of the white American majority first.

But don’t be fooled into thinking the terrorists will suddenly be your friends if the US stops supporting Israel. 9/11 served as a rallying cry for the global jihad as much as anything else, and jihad has been central to Islam ever since it was founded. Israel is important in the sense that the Israel-Palestine conflict serves as a focal point for jihad. The war in Bosnia served a similar purpose.

And people who think the US is completely biased in favour of Israel should realise that the US has spent years actively supporting the Palestinians’ purported goal, i.e., statehood. 9/11 happened after the US had spent years involved in the so-called peace process, where they constantly urged Israel to make concessions towards the establishment of a Palestinian state. As far as I can see, politically influential Arabs in Palestine and the rest of the Arab world are not interested in supporting a permanent compromise that a two-state solution might offer, either for ideological reasons or for the sake of their own status. They only pretend to support the two-state solution for the sake of gullible westerners. If anything, the terrorists hate the US for simply sticking their noses into the Middle East at all.

What I don’t understand, skafather, is why a Westerner such as yourself should feel so offended by Israel’s mere existence. Perhaps it is because of the simplistic belief that Jews simply turned up after World War 2 and took the Palestinians’ land. Is it? I don’t know. Anyway, the reality is much more complicated.
People who protest about the “occupation” often don’t realise that in 1948 the West Bank and Gaza were seized by armed force by Transjordan and Egypt respectively, and occupied by them for 19 years.
And while it’s true that many Arabs were forced from their homes in 1948, many people ignore the fact that in the same year so were many Jews – for example, those Jews forced out of east Jerusalem by Transjordan.
And on it goes. Both sides have legitimate grievances, and both have committed crimes against each other. Maybe people should have seen that the Balfour Declaration would lead to years of conflict. But Israel exists, and I’m just amazed at people in the West who lambast the Israelis for refusing to negotiate with the likes of Hamas, whose charter calls for Israel’s destruction.

As for the question of aid to Israel, I don’t know. My feeling is that the Western nations give out too much aid to everybody. But maybe a certain amount is necessary for the sake of good will. I find the whole business of international aid, debt and finance in general pretty baffling.
I don’t blame the Israelis at all for feeling threatened. At the same time, I don’t doubt that propagandists in the West try to dress up Israel’s self-defence as being in the interests of vital importance to the likes of America. In my opinion, the idea of Israel being the West’s frontline against the global jihad becomes kind of redundant as long as Western nations refuse to secure their own borders.

Ideally, Israel could continue to defend herself without the US and Britain sticking their noses in. But my sympathies lie more with Israel. People who talk about Jewish fundamentalism claiming a divine right over ownership a thin strip of desert might also like to think about how Islam advocates conquest of the entire world.

I'm surprised no one has commented on this, as it is pretty controversial to say the least. I have heard this explanation for America's entry into WW1 before in fact. It is mentioned in the wikipedia entry for Benjamin Freedman, an American businessman who converted from Judaism to Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_H ... st_Germany
I guess it is not surprising that wikipedia doesn't give much credence to it.
Nambo, can I ask where you heard this?

Maybe others can help me - what is the mainstream explanation for America's entry into WW1? The Zimmerman telegram? The sinking of American ships by German submarines?

The Balfour declaration is puzzling too. Why would the British promise a national home for the Jews in an area of land the British did not yet control? What is the conventional explanation for this? Reward for support by Jewish forces in the war effort?

As for the Zionists' collaboration with the Nazis, perhaps this is less controversial. A Marxist writer called Lenni Brenner produced a book about it.
Still, modern-day Marxists, while far from being Nazi-sympathizers, aren't exactly known for their sympathy towards Zionism either.

So getting American forces sunk up to their necks in ANOTHER war in the middle east then.. mmm ok. Cause as we've seen, American troops are REALLY good at that. How many men have you lost since you "won" the war in Iraq? How many innocent people have been arrested, beaten, bombed, shot etc in the name of "peace" ? How many friendly troops have you killed?

Genocide in general of ANYONE is not acceptable, but starting another war there is NOT going to lower the deathtoll is it?

Ahh, so because I dont neccesarily buy into this whole "Zionists run everything and are responsible for all manner of evils" then I must be brainwashed by the "israeli-controlled" media. OK, for one, I dont buy into any of these " Zionists/ Knights Templar/ Thule Society/ Secret Nazi survivors/ Masons/ Global conspiracys run-the-world-and-control-the-media" theories. For two.. I'm not neccesarily paying any attention to anything the AMERICAN media has to say. For three.. all this "jews run the economy" BS already got 6 million odd innocent people killed. That'll be genocide there...

What is it with conspiracy theorists? As soon as anyone says anything they dont agree with, they MUST be controlled by the brainwashing media.. as if we arent capable of looking beyond any one nations news channels. Never heard of the art of cross-referencing? Take an article from Fox News, run it by what NBC have said, then maybe the New York Post... then try the Telegraph, Independent, Sun, Guardian, Express, BBC, ITV, Channel Four.. then maybe pop over to have a scan of some French news channels.. move on to the Israeli ones.. the arab ones.. russian ones.. the list is endless. The whole world isnt Zionist controlled, because if it were, they wouldnt be copping so much flak from their ALLIES.

Or are you too brainwashed by the "Secret Nazis working in conjunction with the saucer people and the reverse vampires" media to follow that?

I think Rupert Murdoch and Newscorp have more of a chance of running the world than any Zionist movement. They could have a lot of pull in certain areas, but I doubt whether it is great enough to control the whole world's media and politics. What I'd prefer is some sort of peace in the area, mainly because I'm sick of all the hoo-ha that is going on. It's too late to do anything about the Israeli state; if anything were to be done it should have before the creation of the area. So now we have to live with it. What next? I wish I knew, but by the Americans continually holding them up and giving them aid and succour doesn't solve the probelm either. What a mess.

I seem to recall that American support wasnt always up to much as far as Israel was concerned.

were they not using ww2 shermans right up til the late 60s? And possibly 2nd hand West German tanks? Doesnt seem very supportive, when they could have had newer kit. They also seem to have built up quite a tidy homegrown arms industry, and buy things from all over the world, not just america.

It may well have started out dubiously, but the fact is, Israel IS a self governing nation, and I debate how much right the US has to interfere in its governance. Seems there are plenty of s**thole third world nations being run into the ground elsewhere that could do with a bit of help, instead of chastising friendly regimes.

Perhaps if the US spent less time f*****g about with other peoples countries, there might be more naturally friendly regimes.

Or maybe clean up their own backyard. Or is that too much wishful thinking?

Israel contributes military technology and knowledge.

It's not entirely one way.

nope, i'm not gonna give you a real reply...you keep spewing the same garbage without giving a real response. the WWII holocaust is not reason for carte blanche to be given to the zionists in israel. you keep drawing inaccurate conclusions and putting ideas into my responses so what's the point?

so how about you just write my next response for me? i mean since it's entirely pointless for me to write my own.

Absolutely, positively, yes...support of Israel should end. It is a terrorist, zionist state that has illegally occupied the Palestinians, in defiance of the UN no less, for decades. Israel never should have been created in the first place, but at a minimum, all military and economic support should be pulled until they start following the rules of international law. Of course the US does not follow those rules either, so...

Burninate them?

I think Israel should pull out of the West Bank and Gaza so a Palestinian state can be created, and the Arab governments should all recognize Israel diplomatically so there will be peace. The USA should pull support from anyone opposing this idea, and put pressure on all countries to observe human rights.

I didn't know there was a genocide going on; is there a source for how many million Palestinians have been killed so far?

It's a nice idea, but this is what really happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89vian_Conference




I've met a few. How many Israelis have you met?

Most Israelis are actually not very religious. Unfortunately, the very religious Jews, like the very religious Palestinians, tend to be poor and have lots of children, so at some point in the future they might become a majority and then Israel will become a theocracy. The only way to prevent this is peace and prosperity, which reduces fundamentalism.

I think many Israelis wouldn't mind living under an Arab government if it had a strong, liberal constitution like the USA. But most of the Arab governments around them are corrupt dictatorships. Sizable religious minorities (like Coptic Christians in Egypt) are treated like crap.

And how exactly is me responding to this "evacuation" concept an illogical conclusion?

As of April 24 2007, the State of Israel's population stands at approximately 7,150,000. 5,415,000 are Jews (76 percent, nearly 40% of the Worlds Jews, 65 percent of whom were born in Israel.) while 1,425,000 (20 percent) are Arabs. 310,000 (4 percent) people were classified as “others."

Taking a random european country for size comparison.. Denmark has a population of 5,468,120 (July 2007 est.)

So, as I said earlier, you're suggesting the forced relocation of people equalling Denmarks population in number. Are you suggesting sharing them out amongst everyone, or giving them another land to live in? How are you thinking to move that many people? These people have been "forcibly relocated for their own safety" before. Do you really think they would step willingly en masse onto trains, planes and boats so they can be made to restart their lives all over again, in a foreign nation that probably doesnt want them anyway?

Any way you look at it, its not going to fly. Many will resist your attempts to move them, and I imagine it wouldnt be long before America had yet another stalwart enemy who despises you and all you stand for if you tried it. Assuming there is any truth to this Zionist conspiracy therory, do you think they are going to go down easily? You think they ARENT going to fight tooth and nail for every inch of that territory, whether youve shipped the general population out or not? You would destabilize the whole region, probably destabilize europe as well, get christ knows how many people "obliterated" and all for the sake of saving a few tax dollars?

Next solution...?[/quote]


next solution is war against israel for crimes against humanity and the theft of land away from another country.


the genocide of the palestinians is not acceptable.


but whatever, you're brainwashed by the israeli controlled media.[/quote]

So getting American forces sunk up to their necks in ANOTHER war in the middle east then.. mmm ok. Cause as we've seen, American troops are REALLY good at that. How many men have you lost since you "won" the war in Iraq? How many innocent people have been arrested, beaten, bombed, shot etc in the name of "peace" ? How many friendly troops have you killed?

Genocide in general of ANYONE is not acceptable, but starting another war there is NOT going to lower the deathtoll is it?

Ahh, so because I dont neccesarily buy into this whole "Zionists run everything and are responsible for all manner of evils" then I must be brainwashed by the "israeli-controlled" media. OK, for one, I dont buy into any of these " Zionists/ Knights Templar/ Thule Society/ Secret Nazi survivors/ Masons/ Global conspiracys run-the-world-and-control-the-media" theories. For two.. I'm not neccesarily paying any attention to anything the AMERICAN media has to say. For three.. all this "jews run the economy" BS already got 6 million odd innocent people killed. That'll be genocide there...

What is it with conspiracy theorists? As soon as anyone says anything they dont agree with, they MUST be controlled by the brainwashing media.. as if we arent capable of looking beyond any one nations news channels. Never heard of the art of cross-referencing? Take an article from Fox News, run it by what NBC have said, then maybe the New York Post... then try the Telegraph, Independent, Sun, Guardian, Express, BBC, ITV, Channel Four.. then maybe pop over to have a scan of some French news channels.. move on to the Israeli ones.. the arab ones.. russian ones.. the list is endless. The whole world isnt Zionist controlled, because if it were, they wouldnt be copping so much flak from their ALLIES.

Or are you too brainwashed by the "Secret Nazis working in conjunction with the saucer people and the reverse vampires" media to follow that?[/quote]


nope, i'm not gonna give you a real reply...you keep spewing the same garbage without giving a real response. the WWII holocaust is not reason for carte blanche to be given to the zionists in israel. you keep drawing inaccurate conclusions and putting ideas into my responses so what's the point?

so how about you just write my next response for me? i mean since it's entirely pointless for me to write my own.[/quote]

I never said it WAS a reason for carte blanche for Israel or Zionists to do what they like. What I said was its a bloody good reason why trying to relocate the population of Israel WONT WORK. I also stated why starting a war with them is a bad idea too.

Thats twice now youve claimed I'm reading your posts wrong. Are you actually reading what YOU post? YOU suggested relocation on masse, AND declaring war on Israel, quite clearly. If you're not actually saying that, then think about what you're writing. I just responded to that.

Has it occured to anyone that funding israel actually gives the US leverage with the Israelis? If you cut it completely, then they can just tell you where to get off. It wont make any difference what they do, they dont have your support, so they will carry on as they please, and the US will have no bargainig chips other than starting more wars.

Whilst you're paying their way, you at least have something to work with.