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An almost bodiless future
good idea 43%  43%  [ 15 ]
bad idea 31%  31%  [ 11 ]
can't decide 9%  9%  [ 3 ]
think it is inherently impossible; please expand in thread! 17%  17%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 35

spudnik
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02 Apr 2008, 11:51 am

Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I think I've heard the the human brain has around 250 trillion bytes storage and can do about 1 quadrillion computations per second already, but I suppose that would be for background processes and not for conscious math/logic.

What I've read claims that the human brain has essentially infinite storage capacities.

I hardly think the brain is infinite, we are finite creatures, maybe our minds and thoughts are infinite.
I do think we will eventually become bodiless, as a natural progression, but not if we kill our selves off though war or some epidemic, I do think we would be capable of uploading our minds to a mainframe within the next 50 years, but will we actually know we are who we are, will the original mind still be there? "is it me, or is it memorex"
Its going to take some extremely radical advancement in technology to accomplish mind uploading, and there isn't a way to truly link the brain to a computer, there being at the present time arrays of electrodes, which is just to impracticable for the amount of data to be transfered, and the amount of connections needed to be made.



Sand
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02 Apr 2008, 12:12 pm

The concept that we might be able to upload a human mind to a computer might become a reality but it seems very unlikely that the mind uploaded will sense being in a computer. It will perhaps be a complete copy of a human mind and observers may sense the personality but the original human mind will surely merely remain in the human brain with the copy operating as a copy.



twoshots
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02 Apr 2008, 12:26 pm

Some might argue that the idea of leaving our bodies behind is rather impossible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodiment

The idea of consciousness severed from body is, under this (if I remember correctly) considered a remnant of dualism. It's been rather a while since I've dealt with the subject, but I distinctly remember them claiming that achieving strong AI in a robot would not work unless the robot had a body much like a persons. Although there seem to be many easy objections to their position...


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slowmutant
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02 Apr 2008, 12:57 pm

The culture of the bodiless human. Intriguing, as Data would say.

How to re-write culture without referring to anything physical? Do all our tragic weaknesses reside in the realm of the flesh?

:chin:



Sand
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02 Apr 2008, 1:09 pm

All neurophysiological studies have strong indications that consciousness is no different than other body functions and is the result of an active nervous system. Neural damage can result in modifications of consciousness.This is a well known phenomenon.



slowmutant
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02 Apr 2008, 1:22 pm

Sand wrote:
All neurophysiological studies have strong indications that consciousness is no different than other body functions and is the result of an active nervous system. Neural damage can result in modifications of consciousness.This is a well known phenomenon.


I think the nature of consciousness is stil a mystery to modern science. The metaphysics of it elude us. Where does the conscious mind come from? Where do it go after phsyical death?

No one knows.

Science is not omniscient or infallible. Religion is incomplete & can't function without science to inform it. Maybe if these two schools of thought work together instead of diametrically opposed ... but that's just me.



Sand
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02 Apr 2008, 1:39 pm

There is no doubt that there is much to be learned about consciousness. But that does not mean it is either insoluble or that fantasy suppositions would be useful in finding out. All phenomena outside of quantum effects are the result of cause and effect and consciousness will most likely be found to have a solid physical basis.



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02 Apr 2008, 2:03 pm

Sand wrote:
There is no doubt that there is much to be learned about consciousness. But that does not mean it is either insoluble or that fantasy suppositions would be useful in finding out. All phenomena outside of quantum effects are the result of cause and effect and consciousness will most likely be found to have a solid physical basis.


Well-played, amigo! :) I concede to your logic.



BesideYouInTime
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02 Apr 2008, 2:22 pm

I eagerly away the day I'm a brain in a jar with a terabyte synchronous connection to the internet.



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02 Apr 2008, 2:26 pm

I get the impression, ( I may be wrong, if so please correct me), that most people are approaching this issue from the point of view of all or nothing; either the situation today in which too much internet use or sitting still is seen as bad, etc, or an imagined future in which the entire body has been removed from the equation, and the science of this possibility is argued.

I don't think that it is necessary to divide up the options/prospects like that. The present day already gives us fairly concrete examples of partial disembodiment of all sorts, and about which feelings are already running high on the basis of "how bad for you it is", addiction, etc.

The use of cars, internet, portables/mobiles, i-pods, TV, etc etc, already involves very little physical interaction with the world. Is this bad or good? If bad why?

We don't have to completely and entirely transfer people's brains to computers, or replace their neurones etc, ( impossible anyway because they change all the time, subject to chemical messengers, clean up agents, etc which "weed" the brain constantly , to make room for new connections and so on), to experience "bodilessness" to some very real extent.

It is happening, and it is often called "addiction, laziness, depression, withdrawal from reality", etc, when it is done for more than a few hours daily in the home for personal pleasure, and "work" when it happens in an office.

And I wonder whether it could possibly be bad for us, unless people with severe physical disabilities also experience loss of cognitive function, or narrowing of capacities, of horizons, of thought, being confined to wheelchairs.

Is the human less human for being physically immobile? As machines make super sensory strides out into space, and into our bodies, to the molecular and sub atomic, is there any reason to remain attached to our bodies? ( other than our eyes and ears, hands, and digestive system to support it all )

8)



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02 Apr 2008, 4:19 pm

Rack wrote:
I was broadly on the machines side in the Matrix, so I think that kind of future is appealing if the model of program was run was something akin to "Better than Life" (From Red Dwarf, Better Than Life is a computer simulation of reality with the exception that it reads your mind and fulfills all your fantasies.)


Why did you side with the machines and not the humans? The Matrix depicted in the films was definitely not a shangri-la. The Machines had long since discovered why their programmed reality would not work as a human paradise. Indeed we do define our reality in terms of misery & suffering. A world with neither would be highly suspect.

Being human, I naturally sympathized with the human characters in the story. With the possible exception of Persephone, the Oracle, and the Keymaker, none of the "program" characters were sympathetic.



slowmutant
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02 Apr 2008, 4:38 pm

ouinon wrote:
I get the impression, ( I may be wrong, if so please correct me), that most people are approaching this issue from the point of view of all or nothing; either the situation today in which too much internet use or sitting still is seen as bad, etc, or an imagined future in which the entire body has been removed from the equation, and the science of this possibility is argued.

I don't think that it is necessary to divide up the options/prospects like that. The present day already gives us fairly concrete examples of partial disembodiment of all sorts, and about which feelings are already running high on the basis of "how bad for you it is", addiction, etc.

The use of cars, internet, portables/mobiles, i-pods, TV, etc etc, already involves very little physical interaction with the world. Is this bad or good? If bad why?

We don't have to completely and entirely transfer people's brains to computers, or replace their neurones etc, ( impossible anyway because they change all the time, subject to chemical messengers, clean up agents, etc which "weed" the brain constantly , to make room for new connections and so on), to experience "bodilessness" to some very real extent.

It is happening, and it is often called "addiction, laziness, depression, withdrawal from reality", etc, when it is done for more than a few hours daily in the home for personal pleasure, and "work" when it happens in an office.

And I wonder whether it could possibly be bad for us, unless people with severe physical disabilities also experience loss of cognitive function, or narrowing of capacities, of horizons, of thought, being confined to wheelchairs.

Is the human less human for being physically immobile? As machines make super sensory strides out into space, and into our bodies, to the molecular and sub atomic, is there any reason to remain attached to our bodies? ( other than our eyes and ears, hands, and digestive system to support it all ) 8)


Have you seen the movie Johnny Mnemonic?



spudnik
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02 Apr 2008, 5:21 pm

Sand wrote:
Because you cannot put the whole universe into the computer. The huge universe is always coming up with huge surprises which humans may play with once they have been entered into the computer but only abstractions can be placed in a computer just as only abstractions of the universe may be perceived by the human mind since we are limited. We have gradually widened our abstractive capabilities but mysteries probably will always be out there. It is only very recently that humans have discovered that the overwhelming bulk of the matter and energy of the universe has been unperceived.

Maybe not putting the universe in a computer, how about using the universe as a computer, using what lies under it,
Vacuum Energy or maybe zero-point energy, it would literally be infinite storage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy



ouinon
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03 Apr 2008, 3:15 pm

slowmutant wrote:
ouinon wrote:
The present day already gives us fairly concrete examples of partial disembodiment of all sorts; the use of cars, internet, portables/mobiles, i-pods, TV, etc etc, already involves very little physical interaction with the world. We don't have to completely and entirely transfer people's brains to computers, or replace their neurones etc, ( impossible anyway because they change all the time, subject to chemical messengers, clean up agents, etc which "weed" the brain constantly , to make room for new connections and so on), to experience "bodilessness" to some very real extent. It is happening, and it is often called "addiction, laziness, depression, withdrawal from reality", etc, when it is done for more than a few hours daily in the home for personal pleasure, and "work" when it happens in an office. Is the human less human for being physically immobile? As machines make super sensory strides out into space, and into our bodies, to the molecular and sub atomic, is there any reason to remain attached to our bodies?
Have you seen the movie Johnny Mnemonic?
Yes. A bit of a mess, but some good points.

The only reason that I can see for worrying about full-time immobility/inactivity is that while we still depend on our bodies for "life", and while physiogenomics have not worked out how to switch off or deceive the genes in most people which are adapted for activity/exercise, we begin to fall apart earlier and worse when entirely inactive.

I discovered Sherry Turkle. Wow!! About human relationships with computers, machines etc.

http://www.preoccupations.org/2007/10/s ... kle-w.html

She talks of "tethering", and how computers are changing our sense of our identities. How computers are "on border between self and not-self", "extensions of the mind's construction of thought".

:!: And asks " When do we need to know when something is alive ?" :D She suggests that "authenticity" is to us as sex was to the Victorians, taboo, etc.

One of her books is called, " The Second Self" . "Computers not as tool but part of our social and psychological lives".

After reading all day on my computer about merging with computers, aswell as how recent massive scientific studies have shown that inactivity literally and directly causes many/most chronic disease, I realised that I must definitely exercise, but am even more excited about our connections with/to technology. :D

8)



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03 Apr 2008, 5:57 pm

SilverProteus wrote:
ouinon wrote:
WHAT exactly might the effects on the human brain be?


I think that one of the main "side-effects" of having a bodiless brain is that the capacity for logical reasoning, intellect, memory and general IQ will grow because we wouldn't have to waste brain space on bodily functions. From the early stages of brain plasticity and organization, more energy will be directed into thinking and thought, as it'll be all we'll do anyways.

There would be no need to learn how to walk, ride a bike, be social, and have a controlling center for out automatic responses such as breathing.

We would be closer to a computer.


Well if this is the case, there's no way in hell our control-obsessed government turning dictatorship would ever allow it. They'd rather see us breaking rocks with our hands in labor camps. Which FEMA actually staffs.



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03 Apr 2008, 10:03 pm

The universe is not particularly kind to living things that ignore it. If humanity wanders off into some technological dreamland there are hungry things out there eager to gulp down dumb protoplasm more interested in their own bellybuttons than the real forces controlling the cosmos.