why people who don't believe in God or pray,etc. feel ...

Post Reply New Topic

Why can't people who believe in God allow gays and lesbians to have a life of love and fufillment together?[/quote]

Because God Himself says that a homosexual relationship is an abonation. Marriage is a holly sacrament between a man and a woman not a man and another man or a woman and another woman. A holly sacrament is a pretty serious thing. It's also mintioned somewhere in the Old Testament where God also condems beastiality.

In Leviticus, the same book where God calls homosexuality an abomination, God also goes on to say that the act of eating shellfish is an abomination. So why aren't you so vehemently against Red Lobster as you are against homosexuals getting married? I mean, God uses the same wording in both cases so he finds the act of eating lobster just as offensive as having gay sex.

Other fun facts about the Old Testament:

- God advocates slavery 100%. He says it's perfectly acceptable to sell your daughter into sex slavery, to hold a slave's family hostage in exchange for his continued servitude, and it's fine to beat your slaves granted you don't cause any permanent damage (though if you accidentally kill one of them that's fine as long as the slave didn't suffer for too long before dying).
- God advocates wife beating
- God advocates child executions
- God advocates genocide
- God demands that anyone found working on the sabbath day be executed

All of these things are stated explicitly in the Old Testament (mostly in Exodus and Leviticus). And the stuff about slavery was quoted quite a lot by slavery supporters back in pre-Civil War America (yes, as recently as the 1860's a large segment of the population believed that slavery was a moral institution created by God). In fact, slave masters would typically convert all their slaves to Christianity for the sole purpose of being able to use the pro-slavery passages in the bible to convince their slaves to remain submissive and obedient. This practice is even continued today in parts of the world where slavery is still practiced.

The Bible says a lot of crazy, immoral things, and most people just ignore those parts because they realize how insane they are. They try to pretend they aren't there or they aren't even aware of their existence because so few people actually read the Bible from cover to cover and of course your pastor isn't going to tell you about the parts of the bible where those great "family values" were thrown straight out the window.

Don't eat shefish.

Great. What about killing kids for disobeying their parents? Should we do that too? What about killing people for working on Sunday? The Bible says to do that after all.

If a religious person does not expect their belief to be used to direct the lives of others I have no problem.

However it is apparent to me that a large majority of religious believers think the opposite. Considering that religions have absolutely no tangible evidence as to the voracity of their claims; why do the leaders and followers feel that they have the right to be the moral and ethical arbiter for the planet? This is why I rail against religions!

Elliptical and oval buildings are not load bearing. They are not easy to lay out either.

Imagine this: Pound a stick into the ground, tie a string, rope or vine to it using a knot that allows free rotation. Tie another knot at a desired radius. Use this to mark the inside perimeter of your stone or mud wall.

Stone age technology can create a circular wall with an accuracy of 1%. Maybe less. It is far easier than making a stable four walled building.

I just can't imagine them making an elliptical building.

A physical experiment.

Take a sheet of printer paper and tape two sides together forming a cylinder. Notice how it wants to conform to as perfect a circle as possible?

Stand it on its end and gently place a heavy hard cover book on it. It should be capable of holding it up. Try another book.. another one.. till it collapses.

Now do the same with another sheet, but fold it so that you have four equal sides, taping it shut again. Stand on end and try the book. I bet it collapses with far less weight than the round one.

Take the books off the round one, squeeze the sides in lightly, forming an oval. Have someone balance a book on it. Again, you should get far less weight suspended before it collapses.

The ancients were not stupid. They knew they had to have their round buildings pretty darn close to perfect.

We aren't talking about a round building. We're talking about a basin that water was filled up in. A basin will still hold water if it's not a perfect hemi-sphere. (Sorry, don't feel like quoting your whole post.)



It clearly states in the New Testament, that leaders of our government are chosen by God. We should follow the laws set forth by our government.

Funny, if a creationist says 'they just can't imagine' something to do with the Big Bang, evolution etc., they're sharply told not to use such a logical fallacy - which is fair enough, except a fair amount of unbelievers say it too, even if they'd be the sort to tell the believers not to use such a fallacy.

Eating shellfish is an abomination? I think "ThisUserNameIsTaken" is confused. It says shellfish is NOT KOSHER! Guess what guys/gals! It CAN be bad!

The Bible DOESN'T advocate slavery 100%! There are rules, INCLUDING the idea of giving a slave the right, after 7 years, to determine if they want to LEAVE!

It does NOT advocate wifebeating! It says to love your wife as you love yourself!! That is the phrase RIGHT after the one that says wives should obey their husbands! There ARE harsh punishments for many, but they are similar to the laws in society today, they just tend to be shorter and harsher with less compassion for the accused.

WHERE does it advocate child executions? It says to "Not provoke your children's wrath"! That is the phrase RIGHT after the one that says children should obey their parents.

The two phrases saying "Wives obey your husbands" and "Children obey your parents" are overquoted far too often by people TWO STUPID to read the next verse. Frankly, EVERYTHING should be done like that! There should be a leader that can punish , but NOT unjustly!

The Bible DOESN'T really advocate genocide, though the old amendment IS pretty bad! It speaks AGAINST the hebrew people, but calls them the chosen people, and there ARE several cases where the jews have unjustly caused others to commit sins, or hurt THEMSELVES, and cases where the Jews caused others to be killed. It is interesting that the jewish people killed, or tried to kill, the first 2 first heirs to the promise! The first(Abandoned by his parents unjusty and out of breach of promise, abandonment of tradition, etc...) gave rise to the arabs, and the second(out of a conspiracy between his mother and younger brother, got cheated out of his birthright, AGAIN with breach of promise and tradition!). And HOW can a blessing(a prayer to god, and affirmation from the one giving the blessing) be simply assigned to the one merely hearing it? Was GOD blind ALSO!?!?!? And the one that managed to "get" the blessing ended up struggling with god, and changed his name to israel.

WHERE does the Bible say that those working on the sabbath should be killed? HECK, on, or before, passover, they would hire gentiles to clean homes, etc... To remove anything with leaven, etc. THAT is considered bad ALSO! The Jewish people have overdone much of the old testament. They have argued the torah, taken from the old testament, created the mishnah, created rules nearly impossible to follow, traditions to try to follow them, and then made the APPEARANCE of observation merely an ethnic chore. THAT is why you may see jewish people parking their cars blocks from a temple, so they can walk. The torah said not to work or light on the sabbath, and rabbinic discussions have determined that even a SPARK created indirectly(such as in a car) is a light! Never mind, that walking, etc..., could also be considered work. If the idea that such a thing could be considered a justification to kill, why would they be so lose with the "law"?

Leviticus 11:10-11 : "And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you. They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. "
I'd say that God makes it pretty clear that he thinks eating shellfish is an abomination.

Various slavery passages in the bible:

Leviticus 25:44-46 : However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

Exodus 21:2-6 : If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.
I take it this is an example of the Bible's much lauded family values

Exodus 21:7-11 : When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

Exodus 21:20-21 : When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Even some stuff can be found in the New Testament:

Ephesians 6:5 : Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

1 Timothy 6:1-2 : Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.

These can all be taken as the Bible advocating slavery. Why? Well, God allows slavery, he doesn't have anything against it. To him slavery is an acceptable practice for which there is no sin in partaking of. Thus, God advocates slavery by supporting it with rules. If he was against it don't you think he would have made it a sin?

The Bible is very big on killing kids:

Proverbs 20:20 : If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness.
Leviticus 20:9 : All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense.
Exodus 21:15 : Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.
And that's to say nothing of all the passages where God killed kids, people acting in God's name killed kids, or where God told his followers to kill the children of their enemies as well as children of adulterers and other sinners.

The bible does explicitly state that people working on the sabbath should be killed:

Exodus 31:12-15 : The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'

In fact, the Bible likes to recommend executions for everything from witchcraft to adultery to disobedience to not believing in Yahweh. And there are parts of the old testament where God orders the Israelites to slaughter all of their enemies regardless of age or gender, although the virgin girls are frequently left alive to be used as sex slaves (I believe a specific case of that can be found in Numbers). There's also:

Deuteronomy 13:13-19 : Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."

So there's all the passages you asked about. I will, however, concede to you on the point of wife beatings since I can't find anything on that right now. I could have sworn there was passage that instructed people to hit their wives if they became disobedient, but I can't find it. Of course, considering what is in the Bible I'd say that the absence of wife beating passages doesn't really help things much.

No thats perfectly all right. No point in quoting it all.

No, we are not talking about round buildings per se, we are talking about ancient construction techniques. And the fact that you dont do a half assed construction job in honor of your god. They were quite precise in their description of the basin, and likely even more precise in its construction.



Hopefully now you can.

So either the construction was less than sophisticated, and the journalist was accurate in recounting this, or the temple was crafted with the best precision available, and the documentation made a glaring error.

I agree. Nobody would do a half-brained job for the Great YVWH! If anything, the precise roundness of the basin was of the highest quality, and produced by the best goldsmiths from the purest gold possible. To do otherwise would be to invoke God-ly wrath, and the entire project would be in the cross-hairs of God's "Smite" weapon.

Either the work was perfect, or it was not. Either the Bible is accurate, or it is not. Either the entire Bible can be trusted in whole and in part, or none of it can.


Or ...


... maybe ...


... just maybe ...


... God is so vast that He can not be defined by any one person, any one book, or any one religion. Nor can He be confined to any one church, any one world, or any one universe.

And humanity's every attempt to confine God to one place, and define him by one set of parameters, will always and forever fail.

Maybe God simply is; and no amount of debate, discussion, or philosophising will ever even begin to point in the general direction of what the one, true God really is ...

... maybe.

I'm quite disappointed in all of that, there is nothing rebutting my post. Oh well.

I concede defeat in this matter. I still believe that the Bible in its inception is accurate and infallible, the word of God. Whether it was a mistranslated, I don't know. But thanks for giving me a run for my money! I love the debate.

That is a bit like what I believe; which may sound odd, since I am a Christian, but I remember what Mary said to the kids at Medjugory, that it doesn't matter what your religion is, as long as your are faithful to it. So being Christian v. something else is a bit like being American instead of European. I am true to the faith I was raised in because it is the faith that was given to me at birth, much like my family. God choose it for me. I believe there is a God; the rest, who can ever be sure. It's a bit like God has allowed some of us to see the elephant's leg, but it still isn't the whole story.

So for someone who was arguing against God, you seem to have a spiritual side.

That's because it wasn't in response to your post. Perhaps you should try reading the words above the quote box next time.