Iowa sees its first legal gay marriage! Woohoo!

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Dude, those are all quotes from Leviticus. My personal favourite is the one about how you shall not wear clothing made of multiple fabrics. Read the Bible before you crank up your outrage.

Of course, it's the Old Testament, and much of it has become irrelevant--which makes it more telling that the homophobes cling to the "one man shall not lie with another" law, and conveniently discard the laws relating to menstruation, slavery, fruit trees, etc. Maybe I would respect the Bibilical argument more if it didn't involve such selective quoting.

(And indeed, Leviticus only refers to male homosexuality, so presumably lesbianism is fine.)



I can't really add anything to that statement.



The problem is people being denied a human right basically because some people disapprove of things that do not affect them. By those standards, the sanctions against interracial marriages were fine as well.

And the idea that gay marriage is icky is fine. Any idea is fine, but when people attempt to realise that idea and impose it on other people in the real world, then "It's just my opinion!" fails as a defence.



That argument is really a straw man, to equate gay marriage with "hardcore" atheism, or any sort of atheism. If you want to argue that some more, define what you think of as "hardcore atheism". I have no desire to go into one of those "Christians suck!" / "Atheists suck!" arguments the PPR board seems to love, where the extremists on both sides talk past each other.



Don't you think that a drive-through Vegas wedding or the latest lurid celebrity divorce does more harm to the sanctity of the insitution of marriage? Surely more loving couples getting married would strengthen it?

To deny any segment of the population a fundamental right, such as voting, or marriage, is wrong.
To me, denying gay people the right to marry is just as incomprehensible as denying women the right to vote.

If, for some strange reason stemming from misguided and ignorant zealotry, it is just too hard to bear for someone to call it "marriage", well, fine, dumbass, call it a civil union, but give me the exact same rights as marriage, OK?
Because I pay my taxes (the IRS is my pimp), I contribute to society in countless, beautiful ways, and I'm sure as hell am not gonna hide in a closet and live a lie and be forced to look for sex in public bathrooms just to make religious ret*ds and spineless hypocrites feel justified so they can move on to their next target.

Michel, I agree, in general,
but am worried about the
very concept of marriage.

See, it's defined as numerically
limited. So, the type of loving
relationship that I'd seek, is still
going to be discriminated against.

People need to be able to tailor
their own contractual obligations,
rather than some vague concept
which is a hold-over from theocratic
times.

Well it sounds like to me you're picking and choosing what ideas are alright to impose on others. In other words it sounds like you're saying "You can't impose a ban on gay marriage! That's wrong! But hey, if you impose legalizing gay marriage, that's a-ok!"



I'm not trying to equate gay marriage to "hardcore" atheism. I'm trying to say that people seem to ignore that it's not only white redneck honkytonk gun-toting christian conservatives that can be bigoted in any way.
And what I think what defines a hardcore Atheist is one that wants to forcefully abolish all religion and think that Christians deserve to be treated like crap for believing in what they believe in.
I'm not supporting either side (I'm not looking for one of those arguments either). I just think that getting on one group for "bigotry" and not another is a bit hypocrital.




I was just telling you what Christians think, not what I think. I'm not Christian, so I don't really care if gay marriage is made legal or not. I really don't know what they think of drive-thru weddings, but I do know there are some Christians that are opposed to gay marriage (though that group is far smaller than it was a few hundred years ago).

On the one hand, we have a denial of civil rights, on the other hand we have people who may feel offended.

Not all imposition is bad, as I think you already know. In the past, people were offended by the "imposition" of things like interracial marriage, desegregation, women's suffrage, child labour laws, aboriginal rights, and other expansions of human rights, but I don't think you'd argue that their offence meant those progressions should not have taken place? History shows that people get over offence, and quickly come to wonder how their forerunners ever held such unenlightened views.



Would you agree that there at least some beliefs that are objectively wrong and unsupportable in any circumstances? If so, then it's only a question of what falls in that category.

From my point of view, this is the denial of a civil right, with no real reason behind it. (Regions that allow gay marriage have failed to suffer an economic or social meltdown, so those reasons go out the window.) And that is bad. It is that simple, and for me at least, seperate from any religious or atheistic considerations.

I also regard the Bibilical basis for homophobia as flimsy at best (as I explained upthread in response to the Leviticus issue), and is more a case of pre-existing bigots cherrypicking from their religion as an excuse to affirm their own dislikes. "Oh no, I don't hate you, because I'm a really nice person. It's just that God says I have to hate you, so I'm above criticism."



So are you saying that you're not a Christian and that not all Christians are offended by gay marriage, but you wish to protect them from being offended (in some undefined way) by gay marriage?

I think what defines a hardcore Atheist is one that wants to forcefully abolish all religion and think that Christians deserve to be treated like crap for believing in what they believe in.

Do you think that people like this actually exist in very many places?

Unless you mean the atheists who want to keep state-sanctioned religion out of the government....?

lots of christians wish they were persecuted because that's all the stories they hear are of the martyrs and because there aren't any today*, they complain about atheists attacking them and looking to destroy their religion which is a complete farce.


either that or they go do charity work in a volatile part of the world like the middle east and end up being killed by some extremist.



*it's kinda hard to be the trampled down persecuted group when you're top dog.

This is what the Bible says about love:

25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
Luke 10:25-37

Christians are supposed to be the “Good Samaritan” in the story.

The Bible never says to hate anyone just because of their sexual preference.

No. Indeed, it seems to suggest jacking your
neighbor off.

the problem with the love your neighbor as yourself law is that most harder christians would rather "cure" gays rather than treat them as equals.

I don’t know any Christians who feel that way, (not saying that there aren't any) but if they can’t love a fellow human being without judging them, then they don’t deserve to call themselves Christians.

No victim no crime, no crime? none of your business, simple.
The bible is not the only 'spiritually inspired' text and is often in conflict with the bulk of general trends in the world of theosophy [assuming you have an open mind], not to mention the fact that it has been doctored to suit political considerations on several occasions.
So two people want to make some display of commitment in front of their friends, big deal, if you have problems with it because they are same sex then they are YOUR issues - yeah?
Man, I would have thought a group of mis-understood people like us would have a little more compassion...
peace j

i'm not saying they don't love them as humans (i have no clue what their personal motives are) but they see (and react to) them as sinners rather than the fact that homosexuality is not a choice (not to mention is nothing wrong with it).

If people want to get married, but don't have the right to do so, let them get married withina different denomiantion of faith that allows it.

well, marriage has its origins on religion, that is where it came from, although I don't know if it came from Judaism or it came from any other ancient religion. But it didn't came from Christianity, it was adopted.

I interpreted “…most harder Christians would rather ‘cure’ gays rather than treat them as equals” as you saying that some Christians do not treat people the way they should. I’m sorry if you meant something else by that.

Everyone is a sinner, plain and simple. The Bible says that the penalty for sin is an eternity without God. Just one sin is enough to condemn you. If you commit more than one sin in your lifetime, you will receive the same penalty, because there is no worse punishment than an eternity without God. An unrepentant straight person has no advantage over an unrepentant gay person to get to heaven. Also, a person with a million more sins than either of the previous two will still be better off if he only repents. It doesn’t matter if homosexuality is or is not a sin, it would only add another sin to an already ruined record.

God hates sin, but he still loves the sinner. If you just accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, your record will be wiped clean with His blood, and you will not be held responsible for any sin past, present, or future.

It takes less than five minutes to pray for forgiveness, so what do you have to lose?

You can say this prayer or one that comes from your heart.

God, I come to you in the name of Jesus, I do not know you personally, but I want to know you. I believe that Your Word, the Bible is true. I repent for hardening my heart toward you, and delighting myself in things you hate. I don't want to go to hell; I really want to be free of my sin. Dear God, I ask Jesus to come into my heart and cleanse me of the guilt of my sins and give me the power to overcome those sins. I want to be Your child and learn of Your ways. Keep me from evil and save my soul. I am asking to receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord so that I can experience God's love and plan for my life. Amen