Philosophies: Liberalism vs. Conservatism

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Awesomelyglorious
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24 Nov 2007, 8:51 am

snake321 wrote:

It's simple, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

No it really isn't. People disagree with that and add or subtract various things from that simple statement, which leads to the question of how we prove one idea correct or incorrect. I argue that there is no method. If there is no method then there is no way to prove what is a right and what isn't.

Anubis
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24 Nov 2007, 9:19 am

I'm slightly socially liberal, and slightly economically right.

Fair society and fair economy.

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spdjeanne
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24 Nov 2007, 9:46 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

He was once a believer but couldn't comprehend how God could allow suffering so he became an atheist.

How do you comprehend how God could allow suffering?

Awesomelyglorious
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24 Nov 2007, 12:01 pm

spdjeanne wrote:

How do you comprehend how God could allow suffering?

How do you comprehend the idea of God?

greenblue
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24 Nov 2007, 4:07 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

spdjeanne wrote:

How do you comprehend how God could allow suffering?

How do you comprehend the idea of God?

Challenging people's comments, aren't you?

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Awesomelyglorious
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24 Nov 2007, 4:39 pm

greenblue wrote:

Challenging people's comments, aren't you?

Heck yes!! :wink:

Everyone needs a challenger!

monty
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24 Nov 2007, 4:51 pm

Quote:

....

Actually, I think that you ignore the strength of this argument because secular morality fails to make sense because morality is not a secular thing, in fact, there is no logical reason why a true morality must be seen as existing from a reductionist point of view. It just falls down to preference, morality in its nature requires a religious element, a faith in that which cannot be seen or proven and a deity of some form is a being that could theoretically provide morality because such beings cannot necessarily be logically defined as morality is not logical.

From a reductionist view, perhaps there is no reason for morality or ethics. But from the standpoint of cybernetics and systems science, morality and ethics do make sense. And the basic rules of conduct that consistently appear in culture after culture can be proven using game theory. It isn't supernatural, it is a natural of group dynamics.

Awesomelyglorious
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24 Nov 2007, 6:02 pm

monty wrote:

No, behavioral patterns make sense. You still are getting caught on my distinctions. Morality refers to what beings ought to do. Behavioral patterns are what they do. Even in cybernetics ans systems science there is nothing to state that people should act a certain way, only that certain things make sense if a certain aim is meant. This is hardly proof of anything. Trust me, I can understand the position of behavioral patterns, it just is not what I speak of, because it does not legitimize the actions we do take.

monty
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24 Nov 2007, 6:37 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

monty wrote:

I either don't see your distinctions, or I disagree. For example, in the prisoner's dilemma, it does state that it is in the best interest of a prisoner to squeal on the other guy - that they should confess, and the sooner, the better. In tit-for-tat, a pattern of conduct is established that both discourages the predatory aggression of others, while throttling escalation of aggression that might arise from misunderstood action. While this game theory equivalent of 'an-eye-for-an-eye' morality is not perfect in controlling all violence, it can be shown to be better than the alternatives.

Where culture and/or biology favors a prohibition of murder and theft, that society becomes more vigorous (less time spent on defensive/non-productive activity and destructive activity). As individuals are caught violating the taboos against murder and theft, they are killed off, exiled, or incarcerated where they are less successful at reproducing. Which reinforces the rules against murder and theft.

The_Chosen_One
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24 Nov 2007, 6:44 pm

Conservatism took a big nose-dive here yesterday when the ALP (Australian Labor Party) defeated Howard's Liberal/Nationals in a landslide. Prime Minister Rudd now wants to move on to a new future, still embracing the alliances with the US, Europe, Asia and the Pacific as well as bringing all Australians together. The conservatives tried a campaign blaming the unions and the Labor record on high interest, but the electorate just got sick of the lies and wanted fresh faces. And possibly, they didn't want another term of Abbott and Costello running the place. Now all we need is for the last third of the triumvirate of evil to go (Bush) and things will finally be on the up.

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greenblue
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24 Nov 2007, 6:46 pm

snake321 wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

snake321 wrote:

people do not deserve the right to challenge the rights of other people.

Who sets up what we should consider rights in the first place? This just sounds like a dangerous claim for that reason alone.

It's simple, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Luke 6:31.

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The_Chosen_One
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24 Nov 2007, 6:49 pm

Karma.

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spdjeanne
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24 Nov 2007, 6:50 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

spdjeanne wrote:

How do you comprehend how God could allow suffering?

How do you comprehend the idea of God?

I'm sure that even you comprehend an idea of God otherwise how could you say that you don't believe God exists.

I think what you probably mean to say is, "How do you comprehend the idea of God's existence?"

I freely admit that I have no proof of God's existence other than my own personal experiences. I think that it would be theologically problematic if God's existence could be proved.

greenblue
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24 Nov 2007, 6:57 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

snake321 wrote:

It's simple, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

if we gain more productivity or better results with one method then another, then the results would indicate that one works better, no?

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Averick
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24 Nov 2007, 7:02 pm

Karma police, arrest this man, he talks in mathes, he pulses like a fridge, he's like a dead-tuned radio.

Karma police, arrest this girl, her hitler-haido is making me feel ill and we have crashed her party.

This is what you get... when you mess with us.

Karma police i've given all i can, it's not enough, i've given all i can, but we're still on the payroll.

This is what you get... when you mess with us.

For a minute there i lost myself.

The_Chosen_One
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24 Nov 2007, 7:06 pm

Instant Karma's out to get you,
gonna knock you right on the head.
Better get yourself together,
or your soon gonna be dead.

We all shine on......

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