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Well I guess Israel and Iran are at war now.

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funeralxempire
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20 Jun 2025, 4:41 pm

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Oh yeah, you are the only smart fella here, we are all stupid and can't see the "bigger picture" but you.

Your amazing insight of the bigger picture apperently never included Lebanon being dragged to war by Iran for at least 3 times. Can't blame you, it's too small on the world map.

That's still not relevant to any of what's going on. That is a separate issue.


Let boo rely on moving goal posts and snark, it's not like he's got much else to base his arguments on.


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kokopelli
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20 Jun 2025, 5:12 pm

I have been wondering why Israel attacked Iran now. It doesn't seem like Iran is all that close to actually developing a nuclear weapon.

Could it be that they are watching the drone warfare currently being conducted by Russian and the Ukraine and were concerned about Iran sponsoring the same type of warfare against Israel? That could have been enough to make Israel want to reduce the threat from Iran.

Perhaps Iran was already exploring the use of drones against Israel -- the Mossad has lots of ears.

Think about it. What modern nation would not be severely affected by the Ukrainian and Russian style drone attacks on their infrastructure?



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20 Jun 2025, 5:26 pm

Barchan wrote:
Praying for the protection of the Ayatollah, and the Iranian people. May he live to be a hundred years old إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَّٰهُ


well Iranian people yes.



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20 Jun 2025, 5:50 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Your hatred for the Iranian regime is quite justified, but that doesn't mean Israel or the US have the legitimacy to impose regime change, especially not when they're doing it only to further Israeli interests.


wanting to overthrow a dangerous regime does not mean hating people. You are conflating the two. Had the US and UK not mollycoddled Mr Hitler (particularly Neville Chamberlain) and pre-emptively removed the Nazis its likely millions of innocent lives would have been spared.

Do Israel and the US have a right to prevent Iran from building nuclear weapons? I think in the interests of world safety it might have to be done. But do the US and Israel have the right to overthrow the clerics? why not ask the Iranian people. According to Boo > 50% hate their authoritarian overloads. Israel/US might well be doing the Iranian people a massive favour. Haven't you seen the protests about women's in tehran? I'm sure the Palestinians would also greatly benefit from overthrowing HAMAS, Lebanon getting rid of Hezbollah, Yemen getting rid of Houthis, Afghanistan getting rid of the taliban etc.

As much as you don't want to admit it, there is mutual benefit in toppling regimes who rule their people through fear and terror. Clerics divert money from health, infrastructure development, education and jobs to creating weapons of mass destruction and employ secret police whose sole job it is to oppress the Iranian people. How would the Iranian people be to taste freedom, why deprive them of that chance.



funeralxempire
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20 Jun 2025, 5:58 pm

cyberdora wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Your hatred for the Iranian regime is quite justified, but that doesn't mean Israel or the US have the legitimacy to impose regime change, especially not when they're doing it only to further Israeli interests.


wanting to overthrow a dangerous regime does not mean hating people. You are conflating the two. Had the US and UK not mollycoddled Mr Hitler (particularly Neville Chamberlain) and pre-emptively removed the Nazis its likely millions of innocent lives would have been spared.

Do Israel and the US have a right to prevent Iran from building nuclear weapons? I think in the interests of world safety it might have to be done. But do the US and Israel have the right to overthrow the clerics? why not ask the Iranian people. According to Boo > 50% hate their authoritarian overloads. Israel/US might well be doing the Iranian people a massive favour. Haven't you seen the protests about women's in tehran? I'm sure the Palestinians would also greatly benefit from overthrowing HAMAS, Lebanon getting rid of Hezbollah, Yemen getting rid of Houthis, Afghanistan getting rid of the taliban etc.

As much as you don't want to admit it, there is mutual benefit in toppling regimes who rule their people through fear and terror. Clerics divert money from health, infrastructure development, education and jobs to creating weapons of mass destruction and employ secret police whose sole job it is to oppress the Iranian people. How would the Iranian people be to taste freedom, why deprive them of that chance.


I didn't accuse Boo of hating the Iranian people. Only the regime.

Are you drunk again, or just really this bad at reading comprehension?

As for the rest of your post, it's nonsense.

The US and UK probably didn't have the ability to engage in regime change in Germany in the 30s, so it's yet another case of a bad premise leading to a BS argument.

And in this case, you follow up one BS argument with another one, that somehow Iran is more of a threat to world peace than the US or Israel. How many wars of aggression has the US engaged in since 1979? How many has Israel engaged in? Now, how many has Iran engaged in (remembering that Iraq attacked Iran)?

If you want to discuss regime change, America and Israel are the top of the list of regimes that deserve to be toppled.

With that in mind, neither of them have the legitimacy to go imposing regime change on other states.

But, if you want to make the argument that levelling Iran's infrastructure and killing a bunch of civilians will be a net good for Iran, be my guest.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
If you feel useless, just remember the USA took four presidents, thousands of lives, trillions of dollars and 20 years to replace the Taliban with the Taliban.


cyberdora
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20 Jun 2025, 6:17 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
If you want to discuss regime change, America and Israel are the top of the list of regimes that deserve to be toppled.

With that in mind, neither of them have the legitimacy to go imposing regime change on other states.

But, if you want to make the argument that levelling Iran's infrastructure and killing a bunch of civilians will be a net good for Iran, be my guest.


No, I never supported carpet bombing Gaza or attacking civilians in Iran. Both Israel and the US are capable of strategic strikes on nuclear targets. Shouldn't be any need to attack homes or hospitals.

And in my list of regimes needing toppling I'll include trump, Netanyahu, Putin, Zelensky and the entire corrupt communist parties in North Korea and China. But one corrupt regime at a time I guess.



funeralxempire
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20 Jun 2025, 6:25 pm

cyberdora wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
If you want to discuss regime change, America and Israel are the top of the list of regimes that deserve to be toppled.

With that in mind, neither of them have the legitimacy to go imposing regime change on other states.

But, if you want to make the argument that levelling Iran's infrastructure and killing a bunch of civilians will be a net good for Iran, be my guest.


No, I never supported carpet bombing Gaza or attacking civilians in Iran. Both Israel and the US are capable of strategic strikes on nuclear targets. Shouldn't be any need to attack homes or hospitals.

And in my list of regimes needing toppling I'll include trump, Netanyahu, Putin, Zelensky and the entire corrupt communist parties in North Korea and China. But one corrupt regime at a time I guess.



It doesn't matter if you don't support how they'll fight the war, if you support them going to war you're tied to how they fight that war whether you like it or not.

If you can attack supporters of Palestine for how Hamas and other Palestinian paramilitaries defend Palestine, then you're fair game to be attacked for how Israel and America fight the wars that they start after openly supporting their involvement in those wars.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. You own the consequences of what you advocate for, just like you insist your opponents own the consequences of what they support.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
If you feel useless, just remember the USA took four presidents, thousands of lives, trillions of dollars and 20 years to replace the Taliban with the Taliban.


cyberdora
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20 Jun 2025, 6:33 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Iran is more of a threat to world peace than the US or Israel. How many wars of aggression has the US engaged in since 1979? How many has Israel engaged in? Now, how many has Iran engaged in (remembering that Iraq attacked Iran)?


Like twighlight invoking the g-word? You accuse people of designating key players into good guys and bad guys but isn't that what you and twighlight are doing?
For example Netanyahu bad > HAMAS
Netanyahu/trump bad > Ayotollahs
Houthis bad > Saudis
Putin bad > Zelensky
we live in a real world where your designated bad guys are superpowers (Israel, USA and Russia)
For better or worse the entire globe relies on the stability of these powers

By the way why it's curious you never have one criticism of China? they are probably the most dangerous bad guy on the planet and expanding their power into every corner of the globe.



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20 Jun 2025, 6:42 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
If you can attack supporters of Palestine for how Hamas and other Palestinian paramilitaries defend Palestine, then you're fair game to be attacked for how Israel and America fight the wars that they start after openly supporting their involvement in those wars.


HAMAS lost their global respectability as defenders of Palestinians a long time ago when they were diverting aid money meant for hospitals, schools and infrastructure toward building underground tunnels (like the Viet Cong) creating a underground city for transporting weapons and hiding cadres under places like hospitals which activated on cue following Oct 7.



funeralxempire
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20 Jun 2025, 6:58 pm

cyberdora wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Iran is more of a threat to world peace than the US or Israel. How many wars of aggression has the US engaged in since 1979? How many has Israel engaged in? Now, how many has Iran engaged in (remembering that Iraq attacked Iran)?


Like twighlight invoking the g-word? You accuse people of designating key players into good guys and bad guys but isn't that what you and twighlight are doing?
For example Netanyahu bad > HAMAS
Netanyahu/trump bad > Ayotollahs
Houthis bad > Saudis
Putin bad > Zelensky
we live in a real world where your designated bad guys are superpowers (Israel, USA and Russia)
For better or worse the entire globe relies on the stability of these powers

By the way why it's curious you never have one criticism of China? they are probably the most dangerous bad guy on the planet and expanding their power into every corner of the globe.


How dare people call a genocide a genocide. How divisive and <insert meaningless buzzwords here>.

No, that's not what I have done. I don't believe that's what TP has done either.

I've criticized China plenty, when it's been relevant.

You're throwing out stupid canards and hoping they'll stick because you've ran out of anything resembling a worthwhile point to make.

cyberdora wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
If you can attack supporters of Palestine for how Hamas and other Palestinian paramilitaries defend Palestine, then you're fair game to be attacked for how Israel and America fight the wars that they start after openly supporting their involvement in those wars.


HAMAS lost their global respectability as defenders of Palestinians a long time ago when they were diverting aid money meant for hospitals, schools and infrastructure toward building underground tunnels (like the Viet Cong) creating a underground city for transporting weapons and hiding cadres under places like hospitals which activated on cue following Oct 7.


I'm not sure the sorts of folks who would claim this have much in the way of credibility. Also, imagine trying to insist the VC didn't have underground infrastructure to support their war effort and expecting to be taken seriously afterwards.

Yet again you reveal how underinformed your opinions on these sorts of topics are.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
If you feel useless, just remember the USA took four presidents, thousands of lives, trillions of dollars and 20 years to replace the Taliban with the Taliban.


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20 Jun 2025, 7:31 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Yet again you reveal how underinformed your opinions on these sorts of topics are.


No I seem to be the one seeing the nuance in decisions made. I see you use buzzwords also like "resistance" and "paramilitary" rather than the correct term for HAMAS which is terrorists.



funeralxempire
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20 Jun 2025, 7:46 pm

cyberdora wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Yet again you reveal how underinformed your opinions on these sorts of topics are.


No I seem to be the one seeing the nuance in decisions made. I see you use buzzwords also like "resistance" and "paramilitary" rather than the correct term for HAMAS which is terrorists.


Terrorism is a means of resistance often employed in asymmetrical conflicts.

A paramilitary is an entity with a military-like command structure. This includes the LAPD and the Salvation Army.

Just because you're unfamiliar with what a word means, doesn't mean it's a buzzword.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
If you feel useless, just remember the USA took four presidents, thousands of lives, trillions of dollars and 20 years to replace the Taliban with the Taliban.


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20 Jun 2025, 7:54 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Some people make Saddam’s rule sound better than it really was. But his regime was extremely violent and cruel. He killed many Kurds and even tried to wipe them out completely more than once. And for those who say "at least there was stability," let’s not forget he started two big wars — one with Iran in the 80s that killed maybe a half million people, and the other when he invaded Kuwait.

Yes, the US invasion was also terrible and caused huge damage and deaths. But it’s hard to take people seriously when they act like Saddam was some sort of beacon for the region's stability.

The truth is, Iraq has been going through pain, injustice, and war for over 40 years — it’s not just about Saddam being good or bad, or the US being good or bad. It’s all a long, sad story of suffering.

No, they really aren't. You're making the aftermath of the second Iraq War seem a lot more desirable than it really is. Literal hundreds of thousands if not over a million Iraqis were murdered in the subsequent ethnic cleansing. Most of the worst of Saddam's crimes had already been stopped by that point, he'd already lost his chemical weapons and there were no fly zones over significant portions of the country with significant restrictions on the sale of oil.

It's not that it was good, it's that there wasn't anything that could be done without a popular uprising. Which didn't happen. You can argue all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that the aftermath of the war was far, far worse than really any point in the country's existence under Saddam.



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20 Jun 2025, 7:56 pm

kokopelli wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Some people make Saddam’s rule sound better than it really was. But his regime was extremely violent and cruel. He killed many Kurds and even tried to wipe them out completely more than once. And for those who say "at least there was stability," let’s not forget he started two big wars — one with Iran in the 80s that killed maybe a half million people, and the other when he invaded Kuwait.

Yes, the US invasion was also terrible and caused huge damage and deaths. But it’s hard to take people seriously when they act like Saddam was some sort of beacon for the region's stability.

The truth is, Iraq has been going through pain, injustice, and war for over 40 years — it’s not just about Saddam being good or bad, or the US being good or bad. It’s all a long, sad story of suffering.


:star: :star: :star:

Well said.

It always amazes me how many people excuse totalitarianism.

And some people make Israeli crimes against humanity as being better than they were. Some of us have a conscience, and apparently some others don't.



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20 Jun 2025, 8:01 pm

kokopelli wrote:
I have been wondering why Israel attacked Iran now. It doesn't seem like Iran is all that close to actually developing a nuclear weapon.

Could it be that they are watching the drone warfare currently being conducted by Russian and the Ukraine and were concerned about Iran sponsoring the same type of warfare against Israel? That could have been enough to make Israel want to reduce the threat from Iran.

Perhaps Iran was already exploring the use of drones against Israel -- the Mossad has lots of ears.

Think about it. What modern nation would not be severely affected by the Ukrainian and Russian style drone attacks on their infrastructure?

Bibi attacked Iran now because he wants to avoid going to prison for fraud or for the crimes against humanity he's been committing. There's also the bit where he thinks that Trump will back it. It remains to be seen if that's the case, although he might well be right about that.



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21 Jun 2025, 2:42 am

funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdora wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Your hatred for the Iranian regime is quite justified, but that doesn't mean Israel or the US have the legitimacy to impose regime change, especially not when they're doing it only to further Israeli interests.


wanting to overthrow a dangerous regime does not mean hating people. You are conflating the two. Had the US and UK not mollycoddled Mr Hitler (particularly Neville Chamberlain) and pre-emptively removed the Nazis its likely millions of innocent lives would have been spared.

Do Israel and the US have a right to prevent Iran from building nuclear weapons? I think in the interests of world safety it might have to be done. But do the US and Israel have the right to overthrow the clerics? why not ask the Iranian people. According to Boo > 50% hate their authoritarian overloads. Israel/US might well be doing the Iranian people a massive favour. Haven't you seen the protests about women's in tehran? I'm sure the Palestinians would also greatly benefit from overthrowing HAMAS, Lebanon getting rid of Hezbollah, Yemen getting rid of Houthis, Afghanistan getting rid of the taliban etc.

As much as you don't want to admit it, there is mutual benefit in toppling regimes who rule their people through fear and terror. Clerics divert money from health, infrastructure development, education and jobs to creating weapons of mass destruction and employ secret police whose sole job it is to oppress the Iranian people. How would the Iranian people be to taste freedom, why deprive them of that chance.


I didn't accuse Boo of hating the Iranian people. Only the regime.

Are you drunk again, or just really this bad at reading comprehension?

As for the rest of your post, it's nonsense.

The US and UK probably didn't have the ability to engage in regime change in Germany in the 30s, so it's yet another case of a bad premise leading to a BS argument.

And in this case, you follow up one BS argument with another one, that somehow Iran is more of a threat to world peace than the US or Israel. How many wars of aggression has the US engaged in since 1979? How many has Israel engaged in? Now, how many has Iran engaged in (remembering that Iraq attacked Iran)?

If you want to discuss regime change, America and Israel are the top of the list of regimes that deserve to be toppled.

With that in mind, neither of them have the legitimacy to go imposing regime change on other states.

But, if you want to make the argument that levelling Iran's infrastructure and killing a bunch of civilians will be a net good for Iran, be my guest.


But you can “topple” your regime, by winning the next elections, the Iranians can’t (their president is nothing but a puppet for Ayatollah) , and maybe won’t have this choice even for whole next generations later.

Regardless of how much you hate your current administration, it was still elected by your people and won by a significant margin too.