Ah, yet more sanity from Hamas...

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It's not a war. It's a criminal gang versus the police.

If the Palestinians were to ever formally declare war, they would be removed from Israel swiftly and easily.

And if any Arab nation had the balls to declare war on Israel, they would be defeated. That's why they don't do it.

I wish that little rat Ahmadinejad would try it!

Probably because TV was pretty rare until after WWII? I suggest you look at comic books and cartoons, as they were the mass media of the time for children.

Exactly. Publicity and propaganda are the strongest weapons the Palestinians have -- even stronger than suicide-homicide bombs -- so their arranging to have dead Palestinian children to present to the news cameras is gold for their cause.

Consequently, the Palestinians love implicating Israel in child deaths -- up to and including brazenly placing their children directly in harm's way. The only effective weapon the Palestinians have against Israel is tear-jerking other countries into giving them more and yet more foreign funding, which their leaders then divert directly into -- food for the starving Palestinian people? Wrong, try again. Weapons and bombs to blow up unsuspecting Israeli citizens going peacefully about their days? Correct.

Again, the Palestinians are not a historic people. They came into existance as "Palestinians" in 1967. They are a distinct people (they come from many different Arab nations), they are a cause. And that cause -- never subtly demonstrated -- is to destroy Israel.

Last edited by Ragtime on 09 Apr 2008, 1:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

You are right of course. But I also highly doubt that they were encouraged to do so in comic books. Or were they?

I have no doubt that the Germans were labeled the enemy, and killing them was encouraged. As to whether kids were directly encouraged to do this, or they became a super hero in the imaginary space of a comic book and then killed many Germans, I don't know, and don't think it matters much. Any country that engages in war will socialize its kids to become soldiers. Soldiers do not attend lectures and tea parties - they kill people. So yes, I believe that the honest answer is that the US, Israel and Hamas all socialize their kids to kill.

This page suggests that people thought different about the Japanese than the Germans during the war:

The problem is that Hamas wants the children to become soldiers (well, more accurately "fighters") when they are in fact still children. They don't only have such tv shows after all, but also summer camps where they teach the children how to fight for example. So then they either will send them directly into the battlefield or use them (and civilians generally) as human shields.
Of course Israeli children are taught also that it's a good thing to serve in the military, but they are only supposed to do so when they've grown up and with the (declared) reason of defending their country against terrorism, not with the (declared) reason of killing another people. Whether the IDF acts (always) according to their own official moral standards I don't know, but I know for sure the Hamas' lack thereof.
Certainly also there are also some crazy fanatic Israeli parents who teach their children hatred of Arabs, but it's not widely accepted and even encouraged, yes actually demanded, by the whole society and government as it's the case in Palestine. At least I've never seen Israeli kids' shows which are like those of Hamas. And I've never seen that Israelis celebrate in the street the deaths of Palestinians either, while in Palestine that happens all the time after a terror attack in Israel.

[/quote]This page suggests that people thought different about the Japanese than the Germans during the war:



That's terrible too of course. The thing is that I think that when one says to an American that this kind of propaganda in WWII sucked most or at least many will agree and will not try to justify it. But when one says the same thing to some Arabs (not all of course) about Hamas propaganda one will often either hear a lame justification for it or only about what the others (i.e. the "West" and I will include Israel there) are doing all wrong. Self-critcism seems to be virtually non-existant there (which is of course not surprising when there's no freedom of speech and only state-controlled media) and those who dare to speak their minds have to go into exile or get into huge trouble.

Btw, has anybody here ever watched the documentary movie "Promises" by B.Z. Goldberg? I think it's really great. It's about the daily life of Israeli and Palestinian children and their view of the situation. It includes a Palestinian boy called Mahmoud (about 9 or 10 I'd say) who in the movie when asked vehemently expresses his unwillingness to meet any Jewish children because "the Prophet already said that the Jews are all scheming and insidious". The interesting thing is that on the DVD there's also an update included where Mahmoud is about 15 or 16 and tells about how during the opening night of the movie he met Jewish people for the first time, who all congratulated him for his part, and then he "stopped being afraid of them" because he "realized that they are just like us."
That gives me some hope at least that what children are wrongly taught and brainwashed into doesn't necessarily have to get stuck in their minds forever.

Sad, but a hopeful ending for that person.

Ever see the movie "Bible Camp" - not quite as scary, but almost. Teaching kids to be Christian Soldiers ready to die fighting Satan (and abortion and food stamps). In Kansas.

That’s quite possibly the most ret*d thing I’ve ever heard. It IS a war.

The Palestinian people elected members of Hamas and the other extremist groups as political representatives and Hamas has openly declared that they are at war with Israel. This implies that the Palestinian people are in fact at war with the state of Israel.

Also, just because Hamas kills civilians doesn’t mean they aren’t involved in a real war. Hamas doesn’t have tanks and airplanes like the Israelis do so they use terrorism. The Israelis themselves practiced terrorism against the British when Palestine was a protectorate. They didn’t have tanks and airplanes at the time so they used what was within their means.


That’s an extremely disturbing statement. How would you suggest they "remove" the Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza?

I assume you think the entire region of Palestine belongs exclusively to the Jews because of your fundamentalist Bible beliefs.

What a sick and revolting way to view the world.



You know, maybe I do to. After an all out nuclear war nothing would be left to fight over. Jerusalem and Mecca would probably be wiped clean off the map.

Yes, just because terrorism is used does not mean it's not a war. Just as the Japanese were at war during WWII even though they used suicide bombers (the kamikaze) and massacred civilians (Nanjing, for example). Incidentally, Iran is not an Arab country.
For there to be peace, Palestinians have to give up their dream of pushing the Jews into then sea and accept the necessity of compromise (they would clearly have been better off under any of the peace settlements they've been offered than under the status quo); Israelis have to give up dreams of a Greater Israel and, given the demographic realities of the place, and accept that building settlements is insane (in the long term, it is insane to cling to territory you cannot hold) and that the Red Sea isn't going to swallow up the Palestinians. To quote Mark Mazower on something else, 'Sometimes people prefer to dream the dreams of the past, even when they are nightmares, than wake up to unfamiliar realities.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

Suggests everybody is related.

Anyway from my understanding didn't the Jews come from Egypt? So they are not really historic people either.
So the so called Israelies aka (Egyptians) should return to Egypt then..

No, is that a documentary, too? And how do you mean fighting "food stamps", I don't get that?

Yes, a documentary - I rented it at Blockbuster a while back. Fighting Satan's evil in all its various forms, including the welfare state (food stamps).

And such camps still exist today? Crazy too of course, but there are crazy people all over this planet. I also think boot camps are crazy and lots of other things in the US. I still don't think it's really comparable in this particular case. What would be comparable is if there were now tv shows for kids in the US were they are indoctrinated with hatred for the Iraqi people, or Muslims in general. Are there any? Or are there any summer camps for the little kids where they are indoctrinated with the hatred of Iraqis and taught how to kill them? Or do the same people who run this camp also rule the state?

PS: Didn't know that the welfare state is regarded as an evil by fanatic Christians, why's that?

The movie was called "Jesus Camp" , not "Bible Camp." Here is a page with some clips from it:



Jesus Camp

No, it is not a war.
FYI: Wars are formally declared. Cowardly snipers firing potshots is not war, it's criminal mischief. If the Palestinians wish to formally declare war on Israel, all their leaders have to do is to say so through official channels, in writing, to the Israeli prime minister.
Then, war would commence, and there would shortly be peace in Israel.
But the Palestinians are too cowardly to fight Israeli soldiers, so instead they declare "peace", while reloading and planning the next suicide attack on Israeli women and children, who make easier targets for jihad-crazed losers.

The existing declarations you speak of were not made through official channels and by their leaders, and were thus plausibly deniable by the Palestinian leadership -- who would then naturally accuse Israel of starting a war that the Palestinians never wanted. (Newsflash: Palestinians lie nearly all the time.) There has been no formal declaration of war. No Palestinian in his right mind would dare formally declare out-all war against Israel.

Israel has not recognized any existing declarations of war from the Palestinians, and it has obviously not attempted to decimate the Palestinian side as in a real war, for any such attempt -- need it even be said? -- would result in no more resident living Palestinians, and real peace in Israel would soon follow.