On disproving religion.
My point is that I have faith in nothing. Faith is only necessary if you lack evidence. I believe in things that there is evidence for. If I can't prove a thing, that does not imply there is a 50/50 chance that that thing is the case. There is variance in probability when it comes to things which are not provable.
-Frank
If you don't want to be bothered about your beliefs, it would behoove you to not post in a thread regarding beliefs on an Internet message board. Tends to lead to your beliefs being challenged. Certainly, I'm willing to take on all comers regarding my atheism and enjoy aggressive argument regarding such things. If you prefer though, I'll ignore anything you say regarding your beliefs from now on so they may survive unharmed and unchallenged in a sterile vacuum from now on.
-Frank
We are in Africa, the animal-heavy part. There is a big elephant lumbering around us in a circle. We can smell him, see him, feel the rumbling of the ground from him, hear the thunder of his stomping, perhaps even taste a certain bit of elephantness in the air.
You argue that the elephant does not exist because you read in a book that it tells you so.
I read the same book, but came to the conclusion that I don't care what the book says, I can clearly sense the elephant with all five senses. There are a variety of ways I can prove the elephant exists, so faith never enters into it.
Now reverse it but the elephant is not tastable, smellable, audible, visible, or tactile. You're still trying to argue against it and I'm still trying to argue for it, but I argue that it's all a matter of interpretation and I think you're being unreasonable by demanding I prove anything to you. After all, to me, the elephant clearly exists because I have faith that it does. Would that convince you that it exists...OR WOULD YOU DEMAND I PROVE IT TO YOU?
-Frank
That is a pretty strange scenario since if we can see said elephant, why disprove of him? Same with me, why disprove that which I see? If I were to deny that which I see and sense, I would be ignorant.
Now switching the scenarios. Why would I demand you to prove to me this elephant that is otherwise doing no harm to me or to my beliefs? If I interpreted as a buffalo, and you an elephant, would it truly matter in the end? If I said "Such an elephant cannot exist", why should you care? If you attempted to convince me that it did, I would say "I believe not in this elephant" and move on. What use is there in saying "Such a belief in an elephant is unscientific and will be the cause of wars, death, hate, greed, and ignorance"? To bolster my ego? To feel as if I crushed someone who is of "lesser intelligence"?
How sure are you that this man does not experience all of that which you say is non-existent? Because you cannot? At the end it is the person who is most sure about himself that needs not defending or to prove anything. He will walk away with everything. After all, where is the burden in such? Because you cannot sense does not mean I should awaken that ability in you.
You can walk away with your belief, I will walk away with mine. There will be no issue of who is right or who is wrong. After all, no matter what you say, everyone has faith. Only the ignorant deny of such. That is unless you question everything, even yourself, and that which you already know to be "true."
Frank
I am not required by my faith to contest it and defend it without end. Does yours require you to engage in unending debates and arguments? Does atheism require you to ensure that these disputes are a constant in your life? I entered the thread because of the provocative title. My curiosity was piqued, predictably enough. As a Christian, I do not need to be ceaselessly arguing it.
If this what your faith requires of you, so be it.
(Yes, your willful lack of faith is itself a faith of sorts)
Atheism does require an endless argument to some extent because you are valuing what is true above all else. You are eschewing what is traditional, what is comforting, what is politic, all of that. Why on Earth would I be an atheist and publicly declaring it if I did not believe that what is true matters. My mother indicated to recently that my brother's faith might have gotten him through some tough times years ago, possibly even suicidal ones, so isn't religion a good thing then? No, I immediately replied because that does not make it true. It makes it useful, certainly, and comforting, not disputing that, but no less true or false that it would be without such information in the equation.
Another thing I'd like to point out. As I drift through this world as an aspie and a bitter lonely man, would it be nice to believe that there is an omnipotent force for good who cares about me very much. Undoubtedly, it would. It would be very comforting to know that no matter what life throws at me, God still loves me and will make all right for me when I die. To not believe this is to give up a large source of hope which many people might need to get through life. For me though, I can get by without hope in life if doing so means I will have the truth, warts and all.
Lastly, I was once an evangelical Christian myself. Slowly my faith has eroded over the course of about seven years until what is left is what you see today. The Christians I befriended in college used to say that you should tear down your faith every day to see if you can still rebuild it. So I lived that way. Rebuilding became impossible finally.
-Frank
Yes, that would be a fair way to put it. There's a bit of a trinity here, if I may be cheeky, of things that led to my atheism, which I'll reiterate is not absolute. I'm with Dawkins on this one. If 1 is Billy Graham and 7 is total atheist, then I'm a 6.9, same as Dawkins, because you can never be ABSOLUTELY certain of anything, but in practice that's an atheist. Fair enough? Okay. Anyway, I'll go into the trinity of reasons I lost my faith and ultimately became an atheist so that you may understand better.
1. The Problem of Hell: I was associated with an evangelical group at my University called Logos. They're essentially a starter group trying to get officially recognized by Chi Alpha, whom they model themselves after. Anyway, the leadership was all Assemblies of God, both adult and student, and this huge AG church is where they all went. I was raised Methodist and was much closer their laid-back Anglican style, but I got into the evangelical perspective because they were more knowledgeable about scripture and I respected that. As such, I was going to an evangelical style Baptist church during this time. So everything goes soundly for a little over a year, from late fall of 2000 to mid fall of 2001. Then a roommate and good friend to this day got kicked out of Logos for converting to the Episcopal faith. He was told by all the leadership that was now hellbound because Catholics aren't real Christians and Episcopals are too close to Catholics, as are, he was informed Methodists, Anglicans, and some forms of Lutherans. Well, I left Logos out of solidarity at this time but it drove within me quite a question. Who IS going to hell and what does ANYONE going to hell mean for your average Christian? By the time I got done contemplating it, I had become a universalist. My theory was that Christ died for all our sins and accepting or rejecting that didn't change anything. Hell was real, but no one was going there. Solves everything. So I was able to go back to faith, albeit with not accepting the whole Bible as literal or even valid, with some belief in the validity in the gnostic scriptures thrown in for fun. I was not, by the end, any mainstream Christian's idea of a mainstream Christian. I was too insistent on things making sense and asking questions for that.
2. The Problem of Human Sexuality: Many atheists came to their lack of belief by seeing something so horrible that they could not possibly believe God would ever let it happen if he existed. Usually it's something they see in a war, or when one of their own children dies in some horrible way, or during particularly traumatic missionary work. For me, it took place on the business end of a woman. During my engagement, sexual difficulties were a problem and I took classes, read books, tried everything, and was engaged to a person intending on becoming a sex researcher one day. So I learned a lot. What I learned shattered me completely. About 20% of women are able to orgasm during sex from vaginal stimulation alone, you see. Most of them require clitoral stimulation, the loss of which will virtually ensure they don't enjoy sex, which explains the purpose of female genital mutilation pretty obviously. So this means that during traditional intercourse, if you're a guy, you're having WAY more fun than her. Her fun will come from manipulation with digits, oral manipulation, or some mechanical device. Maybe. Or maybe not. Also, you'll have to take her word for it because there's no reliable way to tell if you've succeeded or failed. If these sexual realities hadn't caused me so much misery during the engagement, I'd probably worry about them less, but as it stood sex was horribly unfair I could not imagine a benevolent God creating it. Men were doomed to forever live in doubt they'd performed admirably and women were doomed to keep their dissatisfaction secret lest they cause a likely unsolvable dispute to flare up and ruin the whole relationship. Sex was no longer a fun activity, but a game of manipulation and lies where no one could be trusted. This is something we're told is pure when part of a relationship between two people who love each other but I realized that it is a necessary evil and the most convincing evidence to me personally, though I wouldn't try and use it to convince anyone else, that God doesn't exist.
The Problem of Logic: This came about after my last attempt at religion. After leaving the church over a large personal betrayal, I started to look into atheism more strongly. Before I thought I was just too emotionally tied up with my personal tragedy to believe in God, but suddenly I had the whole idea of faith being a virtue being challenged for me. Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and Penn and Teller were truly excellent guides to the conclusion that a logical and skeptical mind was not compatible with faith or belief in supernatural anything. This part of my atheism is the best part to use in an argument because it's less personal and more logical. I've got my emotional reasons for my atheism, but I don't tend to mention them in an argument because I can't expect someone else to uphold my emotions as a valid argument if I'm denying them the same courtesy. That would be unfair.
-Frank
