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Silvervarg
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17 Sep 2009, 1:40 am

Orwell wrote:
Silvervarg wrote:
You mean people like a president and his advisors? Or a monarch and his puppets? No, people only makes decisions who gains them, and the benifit with democracy is that if the person want to stay in power, it had better benefit the people too, since it's them he's answering to.

Only if you believe that "the people" are keeping close tabs on those in power.

No need for close tabs, it's enough with a general picture of what's the person is doing. And that's reflected by society. Mayby you need to get out more.

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I can merely say that it seems that you lack faith in american people, and there for rule out democracy all thogether. And all your arguments are a screen to hide that.

I lack faith in people in general, not just in American people. There are a few other problems with democracy, but a good portion of my arguments are based on a lack of faith in people.

Tell me, who many non-americans have you meat and talked to? WP dosen't count. (We aren't really prepresentative for our nations. ^^)


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Orwell
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18 Sep 2009, 12:38 am

Silvervarg wrote:
Tell me, who many non-americans have you meat and talked to? WP dosen't count. (We aren't really prepresentative for our nations. ^^)

My Kuwaiti roommate and a number of other international students at my university. Besides that, the perspective gained from studying history that people are pretty much the same, everywhere and always.


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ruveyn
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18 Sep 2009, 3:32 am

pakled wrote:
well, if enough individuals feel the same way, their vote does affect elections.

You can change the facts
you change points of view
you may change your vote
you may change the world...;)


When enough people put their shoulder to the wheel, it turns.

ruveyn



Sand
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18 Sep 2009, 4:36 am

Orwell wrote:
Silvervarg wrote:
Tell me, who many non-americans have you meat and talked to? WP dosen't count. (We aren't really prepresentative for our nations. ^^)

My Kuwaiti roommate and a number of other international students at my university. Besides that, the perspective gained from studying history that people are pretty much the same, everywhere and always.


But cultures are not.



Orwell
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18 Sep 2009, 11:41 am

Sand wrote:
But cultures are not.

True, but they still share many features in common.


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Sand
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18 Sep 2009, 11:48 am

Orwell wrote:
Sand wrote:
But cultures are not.

True, but they still share many features in common.


And there are many important and perhaps crucial features they do not share and that makes all the difference.



Silvervarg
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18 Sep 2009, 2:04 pm

Sand wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Sand wrote:
But cultures are not.

True, but they still share many features in common.


And there are many important and perhaps crucial features they do not share and that makes all the difference.

Indeed.


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Orwell
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18 Sep 2009, 5:22 pm

Sand wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Sand wrote:
But cultures are not.

True, but they still share many features in common.


And there are many important and perhaps crucial features they do not share and that makes all the difference.

Humanity has yet to produce a culture that transcends that shortcomings of democracy. I'm not holding my breath.


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Sand
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18 Sep 2009, 6:31 pm

Orwell wrote:
Sand wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Sand wrote:
But cultures are not.

True, but they still share many features in common.


And there are many important and perhaps crucial features they do not share and that makes all the difference.

Humanity has yet to produce a culture that transcends that shortcomings of democracy. I'm not holding my breath.


As an American still, though located in Helsinki which seems to me almost in a different galaxy, I am pained by the awful madness of the country in its present state. I grew up loving its ideals of freedom and equality before the law and respect for the individual and the great warm heartbeat of its hope in the future. As I grew older I got to know how false all this was, about how shallow its actual dynamics were and how the poor and neglected lived and died in misery and the common man who was glorified by Norman Corwin and Aaron Copeland was just a dream as fragile as Oz and the many political fairytales taught to schoolchildren were as cruel as the unrealities taught by the major religions about the goodness of the inner nature of mankind. I know and appreciate that it's not all false, that there are real people who behave like that, but the major forces that move the world are not kind and never have been. I have been treated with kindness and respect by my fellow Americans, by people I have known in Paris, France, in Berlin, Germany, by both Arabs and Jews in Israel and by people here in Finland who have given me refuge and permitted my family to be Finns in a surprisingly civilized country when compared to the insanities now possessing my country of birth. Like the old father of a friend of mine here in Helsinki, my old America seems to be descending into some national version of Alzheimer's syndrome with frenzied cruelties tearing the country apart and I miss my old illusions.



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19 Sep 2009, 3:53 pm

i like this country, i dont love it. that is to say, loving an ideology just isnt my thing. but hey we do have the best food here and thats all that really matters :wink:


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ruveyn
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19 Sep 2009, 5:00 pm

Sand wrote:
Like the old father of a friend of mine here in Helsinki, my old America seems to be descending into some national version of Alzheimer's syndrome with frenzied cruelties tearing the country apart and I miss my old illusions.


American seems to have gone from its infancy to its decadence without ever having become civilized in between. It is really a shame. So much energy and talent led astray.

ruveyn



Silvervarg
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19 Sep 2009, 6:21 pm

richardbenson wrote:
i like this country, i dont love it. that is to say, loving an ideology just isnt my thing. but hey we do have the best food here and thats all that really matters :wink:

I hope to god that you are not talking about America or that you are joking.


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19 Sep 2009, 6:51 pm

Silvervarg wrote:
richardbenson wrote:
i like this country, i dont love it. that is to say, loving an ideology just isnt my thing. but hey we do have the best food here and thats all that really matters :wink:

I hope to god that you are not talking about America or that you are joking.


Why? Its a country where you can eat cuisine from all over the world.


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ruveyn
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19 Sep 2009, 7:24 pm

Silvervarg wrote:
richardbenson wrote:
i like this country, i dont love it. that is to say, loving an ideology just isnt my thing. but hey we do have the best food here and thats all that really matters :wink:

I hope to god that you are not talking about America or that you are joking.


We do have very good food here, most of which came from somewhere else. People of many nations have come to these shores and brought their cook books with them.

ruveyn



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19 Sep 2009, 8:36 pm

Fuzzy wrote:
Silvervarg wrote:
richardbenson wrote:
i like this country, i dont love it. that is to say, loving an ideology just isnt my thing. but hey we do have the best food here and thats all that really matters :wink:

I hope to god that you are not talking about America or that you are joking.


Why? Its a country where you can eat cuisine from all over the world.


Do fried twinkies count as cuisine? :lol: