Eighth anneversary of 9/11 (part II)

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Pobodys_Nerfect wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

sgrannel wrote:

OK, probably the image of the US making mushroom clouds would be too much for everyone to take. It would be counterproductive to political aims, but more importantly, it would kill a whole bunch of innocent people who aren't even supposed to be involved in this conflict.


Kind of like another war we know:

gbollard wrote:

Ah, the Cask of Amontillado strategy that Israel is using...

If National Security was the true motive, Israel would be cut off and "sold out" - it would be far more effective than killing hundreds of thousands of people. I for one do not believe that God will punish America for doing this as many Americans seem to think.

In fact, as soon as Netanyahu crowed that 911 was "very good" this should have triggered the immediate selling out of Israel on the grounds that this country was happy about 911.

John Browning wrote:

Am I missing something? Having started the first thread, I don't remember this one.

The best we can do with Afghanistan is use the kill ratio method of determinig our success like we did early on in Vietnam.

We are not at war with the Nation of Afganistan, for that is a fiction. there are thirty to fifty tribal areas, all at war with each other. It is much like Europe in the good old days, pre 1500 when local was everything. We call the Stans countries, so are the Tribes.

Alexander made the same error, he fought one tribe, and thought he had won, till he crossed into the lands of the next tribe. He never won the first battle, for they did not stand and fight, they went to the hills, then followed him. All of his camps were by need fortified, well guarded, and any who foraged were never to return.

His battles were being ambushed with the intent of causing injury, then moving to the next good ambush site. They attacked his animals and supplies, till the living had to leave the wounded behind.

They could not stop for they had no food, and going on found none before them. In anger Alexander cut down every tree, filled in all the wells, destroyed the irrigation system, and leveled the houses.

That was a waste of energy, and as they marched to get out of the place, those hit by an arrow were left behind. They could not even carry the weapons, so they were arming the Afgans as they went, then being killed with their own weapons.

Afgans are a mobile people, they graze their stock high in the mountains in summer, know all the trails and passes, and are used to living on the march more so than Alexander's men were. The wounded were left as a prize for the women and children, for it was their people, homes, fields, trees, wells, irrigation, that had been destroyed. They were not happy about it.

It was very much like a pack of wolves, some wounding the prey, others waiting till they fell behind.

Everyone fights in Afganistan, men, women, children, the whole tribe, none will ever give up. Kill 90%, the rest will follow you and take revenge.

They are a great Warrior People, and are also wise and hospitable. Just do not tell them you are going to appoint a King to rule them. They are a Free People, and will defend that Freedom to the death, and it will most likely be your death.

The British made the same errors, twice, the results were the same. The Afgans accepted a warrior people passing through, Tamerlane, Jengis, Babor, all passed through, made gifts, showed respect, and arranged trade. What they valued was long term, Babor brought seeds, he liked melons, fruit trees, new food crops, good livestock, and technology. The Afgans beat the British with guns they made themselves. By the second British invasion the local guns had incorporated the first invasion technology. Afgans are very fast learners.

What we call the Northern Alliance, is along the Silk Road, and they protected it, and were a mid point of the trade for thousands of years. They did business with Babalon, Greece, Rome, the Venetians, China, and held the Persian Empire in check. Herodotus wrote about what happened when the Persians tried to take the Silk Road. Alexander should have read it. We only have reports from the northern side, for none of the Persians ever made it home.

When the people at the Western end of the Silk Road thought they controlled trade, Tamerlane came, he killed whole cities, and yet was careful not to harm the skilled craftsmen, their families, and when all thier customers were dead, he invited them to come to his home and they would have many new customers, and freedom.

Jingis Khan sent an embassy to the Persians, they were called spies, tortured, their hair was burnt off with coals, then they were beaten and sent back, as a warning to the north. Afgans took them in, restored their health, brought them back to the Khan.

The Khan came, and a large city in northern Persia vanished. When all the people had been killed, he asked about dogs, they went back, then he asked about rats, and when nothing lived, for dogs and rats spread sickness, they tore down the city, dumped it in gullies, then rode over the area till it was cultivated, and planted grass. Everyone who came to the city was killed, then he went to the next city, then the next, for he had sent three men, then he went home. Later, he did the same in China.

City people have lost their freedom, and their respect for the freedom of others.

Bin Laudin and the Taliban stood with the Afgans and fought the Russians, hospitality says they should be protected from their enemies. Islam accepts local customs, no one is higher than the local Iman, and he serves on good behavior as judged by the locals.

Local government is within the tribe, and they do it their way. They are Free People ruling themselves.

They only unite in response to being invaded, and anyone who would put a King over them.

They are the best, friend or enemy is your choice, they are the best.

We do have the power to bring change to the tribes. a C 130 can spread the best seed in the high pastures, our large machines can dam seasonal runoffs and keep water all year, and we can drill wells, build irrigation, and roads to bring crops to market, roads that mostly serve one tribe. We can supply the metal working machines so they can make whatever they want.

They have much to offer the world, their lands are good horse country, and horses are losing their place in the rest of the world. The best bloodlines of sheep and goats would be preserved and improved.

Their lands are mineral rich, and no outsider is going to mine them, they need the means and the market.

They are isolated and grow grains, we depend on monocroping a few, which could all get the same problem, we need a reserve of other types, and should pay to have them, just in case.

Preserving the best of food crops and livestock is something the world needs, and poppies do not pay very well at the production end. Afgans get only the labor value, so offer higher value labor, and a better land.

It was a Persian who said, "Making ten hectares of land productive is more important than winning a battle."

When Barbor advanced into India, he went slowly. He had his troops dig a long ditch for a latrien, and fill it with another just before it. They developed irrigation and drinking water. To the front they built stone walls. The turned earth was planted in melons, grain, and fruit trees, when the earth reached the stone wall it made a terrace, then he advanced and built another wall. The local people were given work with his army, and then as he advanced left with the terrace. They were also allowed to cross his line and bring food to the force before him.

Keeping his troops dug in they were the first to stop a horse charge, and elephants. His supply lines were short, those before him far from home, and he fed them. Both those behind and before him thought him a good manager, and soon he was the first Mogul Emperor of India.

To win Afganistan leave fifty strong tribes, and leave. We have rare animals in zoos, no much of a life, when they could have a mountain in Afganistan. All of the wild stock of sheep, goats, deer, could survive there, and we are taking their range everywhere else. Lamas, Alpacas, Vicuna, would do well.

The climate is suitable for Black Walnut, forests could be planted, and it is an expensive wood.

We have the ability to more than triple their productive lands, set them up to run forever, stock them with the best of all things, and leave. We would be leaving friends behind. Friends are protected from their enemies.

If we are friends of Freedom, the Earth, the Animals, the trees and plants, we will be friends of the Afganies.

The Afghans are barbarians that attacked us unprovoked. It is true they only unite to attack us and that is why we need to thin them out until they don't pose a threat anymore. We could build a nice country for them and they would still want worldwide jihad until all the infidels are dead.