The Evolution of Evolution - How Darwins Theory Survives

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asplanet
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17 Nov 2009, 6:13 pm

Scientific American: Scientific American Magazine
http://www.scientificamerican.com/sciam ... ts=2009-01


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zer0netgain
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18 Nov 2009, 8:44 am

Redefine the theory to cope with how it's proven wrong.



TallyMan
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18 Nov 2009, 9:48 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Redefine the theory to cope with how it's proven wrong.


Of course parts of it were wrong, it was put together in Victorian times before we even knew about DNA and how evolution actually works. Science has progressed enormously since the time of Darwin especially regarding things like molecular biology. It is fascinating the huge amount that has been discovered about evolution since Darwin. However, credit is due to Darwin for his observations that led to to the original concept of evolution and the ground-breaking nature of it.

The one thing I do find strange is how backwards some of the populace are in some supposedly educated countries who still believe in some sky fairy creating everything 6,000 years ago. It seems like wilful ignorance bordering on perversity. I don't know if the problem is with poor education or that people prefer to believe in some sky fairy and close their eyes and ears to anything undermining that belief. Even the Catholic church has been intelligent enough to acknowledge evolution, just as they acknowledged the Earth revolves around the Sun. However, some people/cultures are slower to catch on. :lol:


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18 Nov 2009, 10:47 am

Theory in all branches of science evolves. Newton's gravity was replaced by Einstein's because of a very small discrepancy in Mercury's orbit. What will replace Einstein's remains to be seen, but we know it isn't 100% correct.

Any theory that doesn't evolve is a belief system. Belief systems are warm and fuzzy because they don't change. Repeat.



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18 Nov 2009, 1:13 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
Redefine the theory to cope with how it's proven wrong.


Evolution has not been proven wrong because the initial assumptions ,that species diversify and adapt due to natural selection, have not been proven wrong. The only thing that's changed from Darwin's time is the details. Of course ,in modern times, the field of genetics have pretty much proven evolution. And speciation has been observed in micro-organisms.



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18 Nov 2009, 1:20 pm

You believe that the Darwin Theory has been the basis of biology for nearly 200 years. Not to mention that just the way we have seen the world evolve proofs Darwins point.



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18 Nov 2009, 1:37 pm

Jono wrote:
in modern times, the field of genetics have pretty much proven evolution.


There are advances in knowledge about evolution all the time. Only a few months ago it was discovered that RNA spontaneously forms from a mixture of naturally occurring molecules.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/ribonucleotides/

It is simply a chemical reaction amongst the molecules. No hand of God involved. RNA is of course a single strand of DNA and is the precursor to all life on the planet. From a bunch of lifeless chemicals to man and all other life on the planet is just a physical process, and this process is being observed and the mechanisms analysed by scientific methods. No belief required, the facts speak for themselves.


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Jono
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18 Nov 2009, 3:19 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Jono wrote:
in modern times, the field of genetics have pretty much proven evolution.


There are advances in knowledge about evolution all the time. Only a few months ago it was discovered that RNA spontaneously forms from a mixture of naturally occurring molecules.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/ribonucleotides/

It is simply a chemical reaction amongst the molecules. No hand of God involved. RNA is of course a single strand of DNA and is the precursor to all life on the planet. From a bunch of lifeless chemicals to man and all other life on the planet is just a physical process, and this process is being observed and the mechanisms analysed by scientific methods. No belief required, the facts speak for themselves.


You should add that to Henriksson's thread on abiogenesis in PP&R:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt112209.html.



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18 Nov 2009, 5:04 pm

gamefreak wrote:
You believe that the Darwin Theory has been the basis of biology for nearly 200 years. Not to mention that just the way we have seen the world evolve proofs Darwins point.


Darwin's theory was the kick start for modern biology. Mainstream biology is an exercise in the molecular chemistry of living things. One of its sub-disciplines is genetics. Very little of earth biology makes sense without the theory of evolution.

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24 Nov 2009, 9:17 am

TallyMan wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Redefine the theory to cope with how it's proven wrong.


Of course parts of it were wrong, it was put together in Victorian times before we even knew about DNA and how evolution actually works. Science has progressed enormously since the time of Darwin especially regarding things like molecular biology. It is fascinating the huge amount that has been discovered about evolution since Darwin. However, credit is due to Darwin for his observations that led to to the original concept of evolution and the ground-breaking nature of it.

The one thing I do find strange is how backwards some of the populace are in some supposedly educated countries who still believe in some sky fairy creating everything 6,000 years ago. It seems like wilful ignorance bordering on perversity. I don't know if the problem is with poor education or that people prefer to believe in some sky fairy and close their eyes and ears to anything undermining that belief. Even the Catholic church has been intelligent enough to acknowledge evolution, just as they acknowledged the Earth revolves around the Sun. However, some people/cultures are slower to catch on. :lol:


Fairy in the sky with diamonds topic

I was listening to a long known NT speak of why there is evil in the world, and she postulated Satan as the cause (the devil made one do this. :roll: ) For her it is a comfort that if you believe in goodness and try hard, you can overcome evil.

This is one area in which the theory of evolution has no answer. Not that it should, as this is not the point of science. And it is difficult to persuade/convince creationists and similar fundamentalists that some people are just inherently nasty and rotten, as this idea collides with the "natural goodness" of humans.

It is my theory that human nastiness/horror will always be with us, just as disasters of a natural bent will occur, though perhaps in time there can be ways to reduce their impact.


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25 Nov 2009, 7:50 am

sartresue wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Redefine the theory to cope with how it's proven wrong.


Of course parts of it were wrong, it was put together in Victorian times before we even knew about DNA and how evolution actually works. Science has progressed enormously since the time of Darwin especially regarding things like molecular biology. It is fascinating the huge amount that has been discovered about evolution since Darwin. However, credit is due to Darwin for his observations that led to to the original concept of evolution and the ground-breaking nature of it.

The one thing I do find strange is how backwards some of the populace are in some supposedly educated countries who still believe in some sky fairy creating everything 6,000 years ago. It seems like wilful ignorance bordering on perversity. I don't know if the problem is with poor education or that people prefer to believe in some sky fairy and close their eyes and ears to anything undermining that belief. Even the Catholic church has been intelligent enough to acknowledge evolution, just as they acknowledged the Earth revolves around the Sun. However, some people/cultures are slower to catch on. :lol:


Fairy in the sky with diamonds topic

I was listening to a long known NT speak of why there is evil in the world, and she postulated Satan as the cause (the devil made one do this. :roll: ) For her it is a comfort that if you believe in goodness and try hard, you can overcome evil.

This is one area in which the theory of evolution has no answer. Not that it should, as this is not the point of science. And it is difficult to persuade/convince creationists and similar fundamentalists that some people are just inherently nasty and rotten, as this idea collides with the "natural goodness" of humans.

It is my theory that human nastiness/horror will always be with us, just as disasters of a natural bent will occur, though perhaps in time there can be ways to reduce their impact.
Oh? I find it kinda obvious. Humans are competing for resources. Killing / otherwise impairing the competition means you get more resources, and thus reproduce more and pass on the "evil" genes. The "good" is due to cooperation - help someone now, and they'll help you later. Which is also beneficial to you, though preferably if you don't have to help back... for humans, the evolutionary best is being as much of a bastard as you can without seeming evil.



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25 Nov 2009, 4:19 pm

The initial scientists who start a new field invariably 'get it wrong'. A lot of what Freud wrote about psychology has been proven wrong, but that doesn't invalidate the entire field.

I guess that's another example of evolution there as well...;)


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26 Nov 2009, 1:55 pm

All original ideas are wrong.

All modern theory is just as wrong.

We run everything on, "It seems partially true that..."

It is all fine till the wrong question is asked.

It's Autism you say? Please define Autism.

It's Genetic? DNA? Well how does that work? Everything is run by four bases in a twisted coil?

Is that like TVs are run by a bunch of wires and green boards with black lumps, and little water towers on three legs?

DNA has Off/On switches, but they have not been found? My printer turns on when the main power goes out, then returns.

Some days are alright, others I can not tell a right sock from a left. If it is Genetic, it should always be the same.

We find it partially true sometimes, works for me.

Dinosaurs became chickens who became mammals because they were bored.

Natural selection in apes produced humans? None of the other apes evolved because they did not want to. There natural selection produced standard apes.



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12 May 2015, 4:28 am

It's not entirely accurate to say that all scientific theory is wrong. I postulate that my wall is yellow. I can't 100% prove this, but it's probably true.

Evolution is very hard to falsify. It encourages the creation of "Just so" stories to explain observed features. One way in which you could falsify it would be to observe a creature that just doesn't fit anywhere. Perhaps a creature made of metal, or without DNA.

It's hard to conceive of how such an creature might be alive.

Another way would be mathematical. Evolution requires mutation, crossover (mixing of genes e.g. during sex) and selection (i.e. death or failure to reproduce). Mutation, crossover and death can be measured. It ought to be possible to use these values to show that one creature could turn into another in a known time period.