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luvsterriers
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29 Dec 2009, 8:07 am

As Christians for example, should we be more pro life? Just a question...


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29 Dec 2009, 8:36 am

This is one of those no win topics. Both sides are usually strongly rooted in their beliefs and will not change their mind because of an on line discussion.

I am firmly rooted in my beliefs and have not found anyone that was able to put forth a good enough argument to change.

Considering the number of abortions performed, there is a good chance that some of the members on this forum has had one. Try to consider their feeling in responses.


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29 Dec 2009, 9:45 am

luvsterriers wrote:
I believe that the woman has the right to choice what she wants to her with her baby. No one should tell her what to do with her child. Our pastor talks about being pro life. I can never tell a woman who was taken advantaged of to keep her baby.


Very few abortions are from rape, incest, medical reasons, etc.. the majority are because a baby would make their life too complicated at the time.. Bringing a child into this would is not something to be taken lightly. But we should not base reasons for supporting abortion on less than 1% of the cases.

In todays job market, if you leave your work on maternity leave.. there is a chance your job will be eliminated while you are out.

Birth control is not 100% effective. My wife became pregnant when using the patch. We had to talk long and hard if we should bring a child into our life at the edge of poverty.

My view is no medical procedure should be done if unnecessary. If it is necessary should be decided by a doctor & a patient. A doctor needs to answer to the medical board on his/her practices.


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29 Dec 2009, 9:50 am

I know of several women who did have abortions. One had it because she had a one night stand with a guy and she was intoxicated. Another woman had abortion because she didn't want to gain any weight. Another woman had abortion because she was physically assaulted and the assault further damaged the pregnancy. She had to abort her twin babies. :(


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29 Dec 2009, 10:05 pm

The concept of fetal rights is too broad, one only needs to look at the case of Angela Carder to see how anti-abortion arguments have been used to harm women who did not intend to terminate their pregnancies.


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29 Dec 2009, 10:52 pm

What always amazes me is how many of the prolife brigade are pro war and pro death penalty.

Here is how I see it, the foetus is not as far as we know a conscious, thinking entity (I am not talking very late term abortion here), well at least not in the sense that I or anyone reading this is. So if this foetus is aborted so what, it knows nothing of the event, the woman can get on with her life in the way she wishes albeit a little distraught and most likely in need of a lot of TLC and maybe counselling. I really do not see the problem except where there is coercion involved

If you believe it is wrong to have an abortion, dont have one, if you believe God is opposed to abortion, let him deal with it after all it is his rule not yours.

So please if you are religious enjoy your religion, but let those of us who are lucky enough to live in countries with a secular constitution have laws passed using reason and logic.


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29 Dec 2009, 11:55 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
What always amazes me is how many of the prolife brigade are pro war and pro death penalty.

Here is how I see it, the foetus is not as far as we know a conscious, thinking entity (I am not talking very late term abortion here), well at least not in the sense that I or anyone reading this is. So if this foetus is aborted so what, it knows nothing of the event, the woman can get on with her life in the way she wishes albeit a little distraught and most likely in need of a lot of TLC and maybe counselling. I really do not see the problem except where there is coercion involved

If you believe it is wrong to have an abortion, dont have one, if you believe God is opposed to abortion, let him deal with it after all it is his rule not yours.

So please if you are religious enjoy your religion, but let those of us who are lucky enough to live in countries with a secular constitution have laws passed using reason and logic.


I thoroughly agree with your first sentence. However, just using reason and logic here, I'm finding it difficult to see how something that causes distress and requires TLC and counselling is not a problem for you.

Please note that I don't wish to express my opinions on this matter after reading Oregon's reminder to be sensitive. I merely wanted to point out this inconsistency.


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30 Dec 2009, 12:23 am

I had an abortion. These visions started coming to me, telling me that this baby carries the soul of a saint. Demons plagued my dreams. I got really freaked out. For a long time I planned on having her, but then I just couldn't do it. It was very distressing. I can never describe what it was like and I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone. I went into a psychosis. I was scared that I was losing my mind. I doubted everything, every belief.

Go ahead, throw stones...I'm numb right now...


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30 Dec 2009, 12:23 am

Abortions done because it would make the mother's life more complicated.

The mother's life.

Now, I see a lot of pro-autism talk here about how Autism Speaks focuses on the parents, and don't consider the child. It seems to me that if you're going to argue that focusing on the mother is bad when talking about autism, shouldn't that carry over to abortion?


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30 Dec 2009, 12:28 am

SporadSpontan wrote:

I'm finding it difficult to see how something that causes distress and requires TLC and counselling is not a problem for you.

Please note that I don't wish to express my opinions on this matter after reading Oregon's reminder to be sensitive. I merely wanted to point out this inconsistency.


I see absolutely no inconsistency whatsoever and I am bemused by how you can read an inconsistency into this.

Unlike many in the pro life camp I do not see having an abortion as an easy decision. It is the biological role of humans to creatte offspring, however unlike many animals we have a far greater complexity to our lives and so the inclusion of a child into this life at a particular point in it may be exceedingly unwelcome so unwelcome intact that it overrides our instinct. This does not mean that the instinct goes away just that a more powerful 'need' has taken precedent. Given this state of affairs it is blindingly obvious that the woman in question is going to be in need of emotional support.

I see no problem with legal abortion, I see no problem with the right of a woman to chose for herself. I did not say there were no issues involved with having an abortion and I would have thought that my post made this abundantly clear


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30 Dec 2009, 12:42 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
SporadSpontan wrote:

I'm finding it difficult to see how something that causes distress and requires TLC and counselling is not a problem for you.

Please note that I don't wish to express my opinions on this matter after reading Oregon's reminder to be sensitive. I merely wanted to point out this inconsistency.


I see absolutely no inconsistency whatsoever and I am bemused by how you can read an inconsistency into this.

Unlike many in the pro life camp I do not see having an abortion as an easy decision. It is the biological role of humans to creatte offspring, however unlike many animals we have a far greater complexity to our lives and so the inclusion of a child into this life at a particular point in it may be exceedingly unwelcome so unwelcome intact that it overrides our instinct. This does not mean that the instinct goes away just that a more powerful 'need' has taken precedent. Given this state of affairs it is blindingly obvious that the woman in question is going to be in need of emotional support.

I see no problem with legal abortion, I see no problem with the right of a woman to chose for herself. I did not say there were no issues involved with having an abortion and I would have thought that my post made this abundantly clear


I agree that there can certainly be a dilemma either way. I just had a problem with your phrase 'I do not see the problem' in reference to a woman's distress. But I'm not suggesting that you're insensitive about this.


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30 Dec 2009, 1:11 am

SporadSpontan wrote:

I just had a problem with your phrase 'I do not see the problem' in reference to a woman's distress.

Even taking into consideration that this site is home for many varieties of ASD I am still bemused at how you can take what I said so far out of context. It is blindingly obvious that the line "have no problem with this" is referring to abortion in general and not the womans pain and suffering

Any how enough said, oh and BTW don't be too concerned about posting your thoughts on this issue I doubt very much that anyone will bring anything to this forum that has not already been said.


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Last edited by DentArthurDent on 30 Dec 2009, 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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30 Dec 2009, 1:21 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
SporadSpontan wrote:

I just had a problem with your phrase 'I do not see the problem' in reference to a woman's distress.


I think you need to learn to not only read but comprehend what you are reading. Even taking into consideration that this site is home for many varieties of ASD I am still bemused at how you can take what I said so far out of context. It is blindingly obvious that the line "have no problem with this" is referring to abortion in general and not the womans pain and suffering


Yes but the very fact the abortion is accompanied with distress should mean that 'not seeing a problem' is still a problem. And yes, you're right - I've taken it out of context. As I said before - I don't think you're insensitive. And I really should have been focusing on your overall message. Just couldn't get past that 'problem' bit though! I am sorry for being picky. Just couldn't let it ride.


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30 Dec 2009, 1:25 am

Some thoughts:

1) As far as I can tell, Scripture does not really tell us anything about abortion except what we read into it to support our own preconceived notions. Being a Christian or not should make no difference in this particular moral judgment.

2) Whether you are pro-life or pro-choice ultimately hinges on whether or not you accept the assumption that a fetus is a human. From my observations, I would guess that most people actually accept neither the absurd pro-life claim that life begins the moment sperm touches egg, nor the equally absurd pro-choice claim that life does not begin until the infant crawls out of the vagina. A fetus in the 8th month of pregnancy is basically fully formed; it's silly to claim that it's not an infant, and we count infants as humans. It's also very hard to argue that a single cell (fertilized egg) or even an 8-16 cell blastocyst, is a human. Somewhere in between blastocyst and infant there the embryo makes its way to being human. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be a clear, unambiguous cut-off that makes sense to everyone. We have to make an arbitrary distinction, and wherever you draw it will piss off loads of people.

3) If you accept the pro-life assumption that a fetus is a human (or at least some variant of that assumption) it is not possible to follow Dent's snide suggestion that "If you believe it is wrong to have an abortion, dont have one." If you accept that a fetus is a human, then it is beyond a moral outrage to allow abortion as it is literally murder and infanticide on a massive scale.

4) The overwhelming majority of abortions are early trimester abortions—the pro-life movement likes to propagandize as though late-term abortions were the norm when they clearly are not. Almost all late-term abortions are for legitimate medical reasons.

5) Hardly anyone is pro-abortion. The pro-choice movement has consistently sought to provide counseling and birth control so that women will not be placed in the sort of difficult situation that makes them choose abortion. Ironically, the absolutism of the pro-life movement results in the complete opposite effect from what they desire.

In general, I just think people on both sides of the debate are being stupid.


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30 Dec 2009, 1:33 am

Argument: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

It's a huge responsibility, having children. Who would take care of all these unwanted children? I wouldn't want to be born into that sort of environment.


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30 Dec 2009, 1:37 am

By the way Orwell, as an aside - your signature is MESSING with my head. But don't worry - I'll try to get through it. lol!


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