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ruveyn
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30 Apr 2010, 1:39 pm

AngelRho wrote:

Consciousness can't be scanned, etc. But it is most certainly a part of sense experience. Those of us who aren't in denial recognize that we can "sense" that we have a mind. There's nothing deep, profound, or "spooky" about that at all.


Your consciousness cannot be scanned by another party. In fact you have no proof that anyone beside yourself is conscious. For all you know the rest of us can be organic machines.

ruveyn



techstepgenr8tion
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30 Apr 2010, 1:50 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Your consciousness cannot be scanned by another party. In fact you have no proof that anyone beside yourself is conscious. For all you know the rest of us can be organic machines.

ruveyn

The trouble is that even on the premise that we're all simply organic machines, our experience of 'self' is absurd - its the part that makes no sense in a purely materialistic model. If an animal were not to have that and simply play by the cost/benefit economics of eugentics, natural selection, survivalism, it wouldn't need a sense of 'self' at all, in fact it would be far more efficient without that kind of existential angst to sort through as things like long term depression just wouldn't have a real existence - they'd have no practicality, perhaps an organism could still have chronic fatigue or poor functioning from low serotonin but that's it. If evolution were to go forward, the creature without a seat of consciousness might perhaps be far superior just because it doesn't have so many brain resources dedicated to such an absolutely useless function as hope, personality, existential desire (aside from food, water, sex, and aggression), something that was fully subconscious in that regard would be far closer to a living computer and do far more without the brands of over-laborious thinking that we do. Being 'human' in that sense is the ultimate waste and absurdity - 'if' there's no God. If there is though, we're talking about a whole other ball game.



AngelRho
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30 Apr 2010, 1:58 pm

ruveyn wrote:
AngelRho wrote:

Consciousness can't be scanned, etc. But it is most certainly a part of sense experience. Those of us who aren't in denial recognize that we can "sense" that we have a mind. There's nothing deep, profound, or "spooky" about that at all.


Your consciousness cannot be scanned by another party. In fact you have no proof that anyone beside yourself is conscious. For all you know the rest of us can be organic machines.

ruveyn


Those are pretty bold words coming from an organic machine.



iamnotaparakeet
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30 Apr 2010, 2:49 pm

ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Though I'm a Christian and not Baha'i, the incapability of the mind to fully understand God does not make God nonsense any more than the incapability of the human mind to fully understand all aspects of quantum electrodynamics makes QED into nonsense. Heck, few people even grasp simpler things like Kirchoff's laws.


Quantum physics raises hob with common sense, however it can be grasped mathematically and what is even more important is there is a overwhelming mass of experimental evidence indicating the quantum physics is empirically correct. There is not an iota of objective evidence for the existence of God, god, the gods, demons, ghosts, spirits and other non physical things.

The fact we are communicating over a system of computers operating using semi-conductors, is a verification of quantum physics.

ruveyn


I'm not arguing against quantum mechanics or quantum electrodynamics, however your previous statement was regarding the lack of ability of the human mind to fully comprehend God as evidence against God. That is incorrect. Our ability to comprehend things, whether completely or partially does not effect their veracity even one iota.



NobelCynic
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30 Apr 2010, 3:35 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
If evolution were to go forward, the creature without a seat of consciousness might perhaps be far superior just because it doesn't have so many brain resources dedicated to such an absolutely useless function as hope, personality, existential desire (aside from food, water, sex, and aggression), something that was fully subconscious in that regard would be far closer to a living computer and do far more without the brands of over-laborious thinking that we do.

Not to mention all the mental energy we are squandering right now discussing a phrase in a book that some of us consider to be a fairy tale. We would also do better to dismiss concepts like mother, father, brother and sister because it wouldn't matter where other animals that are competing with us for food and shelter came from. Then there is this silly notion we have of putting value on aesthetics: a wooden spoon in every bit as efficient as silver, and why do we bother dying thread and weaving it into patterns when it doesn't keep us any warmer?

How did such a foolish wasteful creature come to dominate this planet?


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iamnotaparakeet
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30 Apr 2010, 5:41 pm

NobelCynic wrote:
How did such a foolish wasteful creature come to dominate this planet?


Well, people considering a book to be a fairy tale would also be a waste of mental resources. All that matter in life, by implication of above dialogue, would be food and reproduction. So, for an evolutionist, why should it matter what Christians or anyone else think? Evolutionists shouldn't even learn language since that also is a waste of mental resources, but instead they should just be grunting, raping, killing, and eating just like their primitive cavemen do.



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30 Apr 2010, 6:02 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
NobelCynic wrote:
How did such a foolish wasteful creature come to dominate this planet?


Well, people considering a book to be a fairy tale would also be a waste of mental resources. All that matter in life, by implication of above dialogue, would be food and reproduction. So, for an evolutionist, why should it matter what Christians or anyone else think? Evolutionists shouldn't even learn language since that also is a waste of mental resources, but instead they should just be grunting, raping, killing, and eating just like their primitive cavemen do.


Evolution is a process, what you're describing is hedonism without planning ahead.

But sure, I'll follow your general example, through the application of those evil principles the evolutionists use (they call them sciences), they made supercrops that saved millions of lives (yes, millions), and found amazing ways to either conjure away barrenness in women (They call it IVF), or decide to have intercourse with no consequence of birth (called contraception by their devil tongues). They only did this for their own selfish benefit, that of everyone around them and the population of the planet, and didn't do anything for god.



Last edited by Asmodeus on 30 Apr 2010, 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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30 Apr 2010, 6:08 pm

NobelCynic wrote:
How did such a foolish wasteful creature come to dominate this planet?


Foolish by human standards. Nature only "cares" about reproductive success.

ruveyn



iamnotaparakeet
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30 Apr 2010, 6:35 pm

Asmodeus wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
NobelCynic wrote:
How did such a foolish wasteful creature come to dominate this planet?


Well, people considering a book to be a fairy tale would also be a waste of mental resources. All that matter in life, by implication of above dialogue, would be food and reproduction. So, for an evolutionist, why should it matter what Christians or anyone else think? Evolutionists shouldn't even learn language since that also is a waste of mental resources, but instead they should just be grunting, raping, killing, and eating just like their primitive cavemen do.


Evolution is a process, what you're describing is hedonism without planning ahead.

But sure, I'll follow your general example, through the application of those evil principles the evolutionists use (they call them sciences), they made supercrops that saved millions of lives (yes, millions), and found amazing ways to either conjure away barrenness in women (They call it IVF), or decide to have intercourse with no consequence of birth (called contraception by their devil tongues). They only did this for their own selfish benefit, that of everyone around them and the population of the planet, and didn't do anything for god.


Creationists also have given the world a few useful things, such as the fields of chemistry (Thank you Robert Boyle and John Dalton), genetics (thank you Gregor Mendel), Physics (thank you Sir Newton), rocketry (thank you Werner Von Braun), and they did this for reasons such as those outlined in this prayer,

James Clerk Maxwell wrote:
"Almighty God, Who has created man in Thine own image, and made him a living soul that he might seek after Thee, and have dominion over Thy creatures, teach us to study the works of Thy hands, that we may subdue the earth to our use, and strengthen the reason for Thy service; so to receive Thy blessed Word, that we may believe on Him Who Thou has sent, to give us the knowledge of salvation and the remission of our sins. All of which we ask in the name of the same Jesus Christ, our Lord."



NobelCynic
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30 Apr 2010, 8:04 pm

Asmodeus wrote:
Evolution is a process, what you're describing is hedonism without planning ahead.

Is there planning involved in evolution? This is the first I have heard of it. Please explain. Who is doing the planning?

Anyway, to get back on topic: we were discussing consciousness and whether or not that could be considered to be evidence (or at least an indication) of the existence of a human spirit. If a human spirit does exist it would also include will, without which, all of our planning would be in vain.


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