Page 1 of 6 [ 90 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

NobelCynic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Age: 71
Gender: Male
Posts: 683
Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.

04 Jun 2010, 10:48 am

A long time ago I started a topic on this forum with a similar title, only the last word was “religious” and was called a troll for doing so; it seems atheists take offense to the word religious but they are currently arguing over who is more strident. I wish I thought of using that word then, but perhaps it is not too late to correct the mistake and start the discussion all over again.

I can understand the atheists concern about the harm done by organized religion, if fact I share most of them; I also agree that many religious people are deluding themselves and embracing comfortable beliefs simply because they are comfortable. What I have trouble understanding is why so many atheists have so much trouble distinguishing organized religion from personal theology, or why another persons delusions or foolishness should be considered to be more hateful then pitiable.


_________________
NobelCynic (on WP)
My given name is Kenneth


Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,316
Location: Omnipresent

04 Jun 2010, 11:17 am

Eh, personal theology is in part a choice, not a disease, so why pity? Not only that, but it enables the weirdoes in the first place.



greenblue
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,915
Location: Home

04 Jun 2010, 12:19 pm

Atheists will be tortured in hell for all eternity, therefore they are strident.


_________________
?Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.?


Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 93
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,876
Location: Finland

04 Jun 2010, 12:27 pm

Atheists aren't strident. They just point out that stupid thoughts are stupid and people addicted to these silly things have exaggerated emotional reactions and consider direct analysis as aggression.



Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,316
Location: Omnipresent

04 Jun 2010, 1:10 pm

greenblue wrote:
Atheists will be tortured in hell for all eternity, therefore they are strident.

Only partially right. We also have to drown out the God we suppress as well.



Moog
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 17,663
Location: Untied Kingdom

04 Jun 2010, 1:17 pm

You only hear from the strident ones. The reasonable ones are happy to keep their beliefs to themselves, unless asked for.


_________________
Not currently a moderator


LiendaBalla
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,857

04 Jun 2010, 1:19 pm

Sand wrote:
Atheists aren't strident. They just point out that stupid thoughts are stupid and people addicted to these silly things have exaggerated emotional reactions and consider direct analysis as aggression.


That so helps my positive perspective there.....



Asmodeus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,520

06 Jun 2010, 2:15 pm

NobelCynic wrote:
What I have trouble understanding is why so many atheists have so much trouble distinguishing organized religion from personal theology,

Because organised religion commonly dictates personal theology, and both are forms of religion.

NobelCynic wrote:
or why another persons delusions or foolishness should be considered to be more hateful then pitiable.
Because if their delusions happen to be tied to a belief system that (depending upon which faith you're talking about) enables:
family violence
murder
forced marriage
luddism
misattribution of natural disasters
sexism
homophobia
sexual abuse
child abuse
war
etc.
then pity is not powerful enough to ease the cognitive dissonance.

Though I personally do not hate religion, but find it to be mostly fallacious.



Exclavius
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 May 2010
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 632
Location: Ontario, Canada

06 Jun 2010, 7:17 pm

When one takes the intellectually lazy alternative in believing in a theistic concept, instead of taking the time to work out real physical solutions to what they are otherwise trying to explain away with their beliefs, they accept falsehoods that become part of their interactions with others. Those falsehoods perpetuate themselves because they are easier for like-lazy minded individuals to grasp.

That is where the children get caught up in it all. Whether you tell your child "there is a god, and he says <blah>" or if the child overhears mommy and daddy saying some likewise illogical fallacy, they tend to accept that as truth, because it was mommy and/or daddy that said it.

That child then grows up believing that tripe, and indoctrinating (intentionally or otherwise) their own child in that same fallacy.

Yes, the child can when reaching adulthood reason it out themselves and find truth, if they themselves are not intellectually lazy... however being raised by intellectually lazy parents, they are that much more likely to be so themselves.
Everything Asmodeus listed is a result of perpetuated fallacies that have not been reasoned out and eliminated from society, solely because of the existence of irrational beliefs to allow our minds to be lazy.

Also one should consider the effect of an artificially created concept of an "absolute" which the users themselves define, so as to justify the perceived right to judge others by.

Laziness is the mother of all invention... And the greatest invention of all time is god. (not religion, which comes a distant second and could not exist without a concept of the divine)

PS... "I don't know" is a true answer.
"God said so" is a cop-out



psychohist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,623
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

06 Jun 2010, 8:26 pm

Moog wrote:
You only hear from the strident ones. The reasonable ones are happy to keep their beliefs to themselves, unless asked for.

Exactly.



Exclavius
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 May 2010
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 632
Location: Ontario, Canada

06 Jun 2010, 9:23 pm

psychohist wrote:
Moog wrote:
You only hear from the strident ones. The reasonable ones are happy to keep their beliefs to themselves, unless asked for.

Exactly.


I think a bit more has to be added... Though what you say is 100% true.

Religion and God have been give a special place "above criticism" for so long, and still receives that place in most minds, especially the believers (which unfortunately outnumber the non-believers). Because of this, two people, equally as strident in their views, one atheist, one theist -- the atheist would be viewed more strident than the theist by the majority of people. In fact any forcefulness behind an atheist view is taken as strident.



donnie_darko
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,988

06 Jun 2010, 11:09 pm

It's strange why they care so much. Surely if God isn't real, why must they be so anti-God?



Master_Pedant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,926

06 Jun 2010, 11:12 pm

Atheists are so very STRIDENT because theists are such MILITANT over-generalizers.



Master_Pedant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,926

06 Jun 2010, 11:24 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
It's strange why they care so much. Surely if God isn't real, why must they be so anti-God?


I don't mean to sound (overly) arrogant, but have you ever googled terms like "anti-theism" and "anti-religion"? There have been books written on why certain atheists are also very anti-theistic. Some of the arguments anti-theistic atheists have given over the years include:

- God and supernatural beings in general are a concept that impoverish our intellectual culture.
- Gods, being indiscernible by any method, are easily exploited by people to backup BS notions (Creationism, the allegation family planning is immoral, the allegation homosexuality is immoral, etc)
- Centralized Religion has been used to back up some of the worst nationalistic regimes in history (in the later part of their tenure, even Communist governments began exploiting religion).
- God encourages teleological thinking - which leads to irrational and harmful superstition.

Whether you agree with the stridently anti-theistic atheist's moral outrage or not, the matter remains that there is a massive body of literature clearly expressing their reasons for opposing theism.



NobelCynic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Age: 71
Gender: Male
Posts: 683
Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.

07 Jun 2010, 6:54 am

Exclavius wrote:
Laziness is the mother of all invention... And the greatest invention of all time is god. (not religion, which comes a distant second and could not exist without a concept of the divine)

This statement suggests that, unlike most atheists, you are more anti-theist than anti-religious; yet you base your attack on religion, not theism itself. Many of the things Asmodeus listed have been promoted by religion though they have also been known to happen without it. Does it matter if one disapproves of say homosexuality because he thinks his god does or he came to that conclusion by himself? It seems to me to be more practical to refute the idea itself rather than the source of it; indeed, I would think it would be intellectually lazy to attack the source.

We have had some strident Christians here and I agree they can be every bit as annoying as the strident atheists. Theological opinions are (or should be) very personal and it would be nice if they could be kept that way unless another person expresses an interest in learning what they are. I see no point, however, in grouping ourselves into camps to debate the general concept.


_________________
NobelCynic (on WP)
My given name is Kenneth