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lotusblossom
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27 Jul 2010, 4:26 pm

I have had several relationships where my partner has wanted to hit me, the first one led to extreme violence and the other 2 just mild stuff but it was mutually viewed that they would lead to worse violence further down the line and both terminated before it could get worse.

It makes me feel very bad about myself that people want to hit me when they get to know me, I have not wanted to hit them. I dont understand why people want to be violent to their partners and why Im so especially provoking.

I dont want to have another relationship where the guy wants to hit me but I dont understand how to not make it happen. All of the guys said they hated domestic violence and deplored what the other ones had done, yet they all became violent so i dont understand.

They all said I 'made them' do it and that Im just too annoying and deserved to be hit and said any 'right thinking' man would, they said I had provoking expressions and were too 'upity'/stroppy, they said I did not respect them enough, and I need to be taught a lesson. However Im not aware of doing those things which makes it hard to not do.

They were all very nice people who everyone would say were 'nice guys' and did not seem to have been violent in their previous relationships. So I must bring it out in people.

I want to understand it better as I dont want it happening again.

any thoughts welcome :D



Lene
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27 Jul 2010, 4:36 pm

Wow Lotusblossum... you would be the last person I would have thought to have fallen into this pattern of thinking...

You haven't caused anyone to hit you. You are not a 'hittable' person anymore than somone who gets knocked over by a car is a runoverable person.

You may have developed a pattern of choosing people who react to stress in a certain way though, so it may be wise to look at what kind of guys you go for in order to avoid them in future.

Their violence is their problem. As long as you didn't start the violence first, then you are not responsible in any way.

http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/

Quote:
They were all very nice people who everyone would say were 'nice guys' and did not seem to have been violent in their previous relationships. So I must bring it out in people.


The evidence shows them to not be all that nice actually. And just because they haven't acted out before does not make it your problem that they chose to be violent towards you.

edit: Quote from the website that might be of relevance:


"MYTH

Abusers are always coarse, nasty, violent men and easily identified

FACT

Abusers are often apparently charming, generous and well-presented people who can hold positions of social standing. Abuse is kept for those nearest to him or her, to the privacy of their own homes. This Jekyll and Hyde tendency of the abuser can further confuse and frighten the person being abused, as the person in private is so very different to the person everyone else sees. It can also mean that when the person being abused finally does try to tell his/her friends, family or acquaintances of the abuse, he or she is not believed, because the person they are describing simply doesn’t fit the image portrayed in public."



Willard
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27 Jul 2010, 5:39 pm

Lene wrote:
not a 'hittable' person anymore than somone who gets knocked over by a car is a runoverable person..


As long as you didn't start the violence first, then you are not responsible in any way."



I'm sure that's very comforting, but its entirely unrealistic. It is demonstrably possible to provoke someone to violent behavior who would without provocation, never act out that way.

Not saying that's the case here, but not all 'victims' are as innocent as they want people to believe they are. The party who acts out violently is always responsible under the law, because its automatically assumed they had the option of walking away, but any cop can tell you there's often (not always) more going on than one person abusing another out the blue.

It is also very true that some personalities do gravitate toward relationships that reinforce their own self-perceptions, without being consciously aware of it.

Unfortunately, I think to a great extent the Aspergian personality is just naturally frustrating and irritating to some personality types, who just cannot accept that we aren't intentionally trying to p*ss them off, we just cannot behave the way they think we 'should'. IMHO, we're better off in no relationship at all, than to spend our lives apologizing for being who we are.



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27 Jul 2010, 5:40 pm

If they were really kind, hitting people would never cross their minds when they get upset. You don't bring it out in people, they bring it out of themselves. You need to choose someone who understands the difficulty Autistic people have reading other peoples emotions. You deserve a little extra patience from the guys you choose to have a relationship with. Don't put up with a guy who shows impatience because it may be the early sign you picked wrong again.

I know people like to choose the same type of person over and over, but you need to change it up a little. Try going about finding your next relationship in a different way than you normally do.


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27 Jul 2010, 5:51 pm

Was there violence in your home with your parents?



lotusblossom
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27 Jul 2010, 5:56 pm

Mudboy wrote:
If they were really kind, hitting people would never cross their minds when they get upset. You don't bring it out in people, they bring it out of themselves. You need to choose someone who understands the difficulty Autistic people have reading other peoples emotions. You deserve a little extra patience from the guys you choose to have a relationship with. Don't put up with a guy who shows impatience because it may be the early sign you picked wrong again.

I know people like to choose the same type of person over and over, but you need to change it up a little. Try going about finding your next relationship in a different way than you normally do.

They were all completely different in personality and values and interests. The only thing they had in common was low self esteem and insecurity but Im sure most guys on this forum have that but they would not necersaily want to hit someone.



lotusblossom
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27 Jul 2010, 6:04 pm

Lene wrote:
Wow Lotusblossum... you would be the last person I would have thought to have fallen into this pattern of thinking...

You haven't caused anyone to hit you. You are not a 'hittable' person anymore than somone who gets knocked over by a car is a runoverable person.

You may have developed a pattern of choosing people who react to stress in a certain way though, so it may be wise to look at what kind of guys you go for in order to avoid them in future.

Their violence is their problem. As long as you didn't start the violence first, then you are not responsible in any way.

http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/

Quote:
They were all very nice people who everyone would say were 'nice guys' and did not seem to have been violent in their previous relationships. So I must bring it out in people.


The evidence shows them to not be all that nice actually. And just because they haven't acted out before does not make it your problem that they chose to be violent towards you.

edit: Quote from the website that might be of relevance:


"MYTH

Abusers are always coarse, nasty, violent men and easily identified

FACT

Abusers are often apparently charming, generous and well-presented people who can hold positions of social standing. Abuse is kept for those nearest to him or her, to the privacy of their own homes. This Jekyll and Hyde tendency of the abuser can further confuse and frighten the person being abused, as the person in private is so very different to the person everyone else sees. It can also mean that when the person being abused finally does try to tell his/her friends, family or acquaintances of the abuse, he or she is not believed, because the person they are describing simply doesn’t fit the image portrayed in public."

My social worker says what you have said and says its about haveing power and control over someone and trying to make them do what you want.

However if that were so then they would not have all said the same things and made exactly the same complaints.

She says she has seen me in a 'tantrum' and did not want to hit me so people are capable of not wanting to even if I was behaving terribly. She says I just need to have stricter criterior and terminate relationships if people show signs of not likeing me (ie criticising and complaining a lot).

On the one hand what you and she says sounds right but on the other hand I cant beleive I would keep getting this responce from people if I was not doing something seriously wrong.



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27 Jul 2010, 6:08 pm

Willard wrote:
Lene wrote:
not a 'hittable' person anymore than somone who gets knocked over by a car is a runoverable person..


As long as you didn't start the violence first, then you are not responsible in any way."



I'm sure that's very comforting, but its entirely unrealistic. It is demonstrably possible to provoke someone to violent behavior who would without provocation, never act out that way.

Not saying that's the case here, but not all 'victims' are as innocent as they want people to believe they are. The party who acts out violently is always responsible under the law, because its automatically assumed they had the option of walking away, but any cop can tell you there's often (not always) more going on than one person abusing another out the blue.

It is also very true that some personalities do gravitate toward relationships that reinforce their own self-perceptions, without being consciously aware of it.

Unfortunately, I think to a great extent the Aspergian personality is just naturally frustrating and irritating to some personality types, who just cannot accept that we aren't intentionally trying to p*ss them off, we just cannot behave the way they think we 'should'. IMHO, we're better off in no relationship at all, than to spend our lives apologizing for being who we are.

Willard can you explain further what you mean about provocation and the thought processes involved.

Im really interested in understanding but find it hard as people in RL just respond with twee platitudes and cliches which really do not explain to me why someone would want to have sex with someone who they also find so annoying they want to hit. I myself dont want to be round people I find that annoying, let alone kiss or cuddle them!



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27 Jul 2010, 7:25 pm

I too dated someone in the past who was regarded as "perfect" by all who knew him. He was extremely "charming" and sweet natured. He had many friends, many of them women, who just thought he was a "sweetheart." Very soon after becoming close, he started degrading me- calling me a "weirdo" and "nerd" (and not in a loving, teasing way). Then he started hitting on women in front of me. he told me I was fat (totally NOT. I only weighed 130 AT MOST and I am 5'4". I had other guys hitting on me a lot). He started telling me how to dress. When I told him I didn't want to see him any more since he wasn't happy and obviously wanted to see other girls he was cool. Until he saw me talking to someone he knew at a party. He FLIPPED. Threatened to kill me. Tried to pull me out of a car that was about to move- I could have been crushed under the car. It was madness. Yet, all the people who knew us said it must have been MY fault, or that he just must have been drunk or something because he was always "so sweet." He then began STALKING me. He called my home incessantly and threatened my family (I was living with my parents). And STILL our "friends" took his side because I was always "off" and I was lucky to have him considering how weird I was (Everyone agreed I was good-looking, but I "wasted" it by being odd :? )

I told him to leave me alone or that I was going to file a RO. That freaked him out I guess and he finally backed off.

My grandmother was once married to a man like this too. Before they married he swept her off her feet. He was SO sweet and charismatic. He had many friends. When they married he turned into a serious wife-beater. Beat her within an inch of her life on MANY occasions. He also molested my aunt. She was so convinced it was HER fault because she MADE him do it by "upsetting" him she allowed this for years. It took my mother shoving a gun in his face to get rid of him. And the WHOLE time every one of their friends and fellow church-goers just could not say enough nice things about him.


Anyway, the point is this is how these sickos WORK. It doesn't matter how annoying, mean, rude, "fill-in-blank-with-negative-behavior" you are. There is no reason to hit anyone else, unless you fear for your life and are protecting yourself. it is a known fact that people who find themselves in these situations, do so in some kind of pattern. My husband explained it to me the other day:

Let's say a girl has a troubled family. Dad's a drunk and is abusive, generally scary. Mom is weak or absent. Dad goes on binges and gets abusive. Then he sobers up (enough) to feel bad (this ALWAYS happens) and gets all lovey and protective. The girl actually grows up associating some of the bad things with comfort. maybe the smell of drink, maybe something else. But it is something another man who has similar issues also shares. She sometimes grows up and actually NEEDS the bad thing to feel comfort. This leads her to go from one drunk abuser to another.

Now, I'm NOT saying that is what's going on here. Just using that as an example. Maybe something similar is going on, maybe not. But one thing is clear- these men are wolves in sheep's clothing. They are NOT nice. You did not create abusers. THEY decided to get all crazy. THEY are/were the problem. It is possible something about them gave you comfort but that thing was inappropriately associated with comfort at some time before. And that process would be unconscious, it's conditioning- not a logical process. But one can learn to identify it and learn to avoid it. IF that's what's going on. But I do not know you so I can't say for sure.

Again, all I can say for sure is that 1) it was NOT your fault. EVER (unless you were getting violent, which it doesn't sound like that was the case) and 2) They were abusers. Period.

I wish you better luck in the future :)

BTW, my husband and I have gotten into MANY fights. Some REALLY bad. He has thrown things, yelled, called me names, said awful things but has NEVER hit me. Not even close.


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27 Jul 2010, 8:04 pm

I don't know if this will be useful to you but here goes:-

My brother has a friend named Norman. The friendship has lasted 30 years. Norman is universally acknowledged to be absolutely the sweetest guy you could ever meet. And he is, every time we meet, what a great guy!

Norman's been married 3 times. We giggle that we have to be careful not to wear the same thing to the next wedding as to the last one.

And the thing that made me open my eyes: it was Christmas Eve. My 3yo nephew was helping by passing out the TV trays, one at a time, hoisting the folded TV tray up onto his shoulder and proudly presenting it to the adult, who would thank him and praise him. The little kid was in his glory for doing a grown-up thing at the party. And then he brought a TV tray to Norman, who took it, opened it - and it came apart in his hands, as TV trays often do. Without missing a beat, he looked at the little kid, gasped and said, "Look what you did!" The kid's eyes got wide. Norman went on, "You broke it!" This went on until the kid was white as a sheet and I grabbed him and said, "You didn't do that, go see Grandma."

The kid took off to be with Grandma in the kitchen and I sat there and waited for Norman to say something but he didn't - not one word.

So then I knew the truth about sweet Norman and his 3 marriages (so far). He's as mean as a snake.



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28 Jul 2010, 12:52 am

Quote:
However if that were so then they would not have all said the same things and made exactly the same complaints.

She says she has seen me in a 'tantrum' and did not want to hit me so people are capable of not wanting to even if I was behaving terribly. She says I just need to have stricter criterior and terminate relationships if people show signs of not likeing me (ie criticising and complaining a lot).

On the one hand what you and she says sounds right but on the other hand I cant beleive I would keep getting this responce from people if I was not doing something seriously wrong.


Your response is actually quite typical of a survivor of domestic violence.

Part of what makes this kind of violence so dispicable is there is a psychological element to it that begins to make you think the fault lies within yourself. You then end up being your abusers greatest defender, even going against your own family members to stick up for the abuser.

Domestic violence is not some kind of 24/7 constant tyraid of abuse and physical assualt. It operates in a cycle. You have the incident of violence, then there is a honey moon period then the situation returns to a norm until another incident sparks and it is repeated all over again. Some people actually begin to develop serious psychological problems from this because they begin to think this is the only way someone shows that they love them and even if the relationship ends they will seek other people who treat them in this manor. Normal relationships will seem boring, and the cycle continues.

You do get female abusers. But for the most part this is a domain of male mysoginy. If you are a women who aspires to be assertive, independent and argumentative you will find in this life that there are plenty of men out there who delight in breaking you down and making you into subjegated slaves. It's as much branwashing as it is abusive.



lotusblossom
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28 Jul 2010, 2:18 am

Gigi830 wrote:
I too dated someone in the past who was regarded as "perfect" by all who knew him. He was extremely "charming" and sweet natured. He had many friends, many of them women, who just thought he was a "sweetheart." Very soon after becoming close, he started degrading me- calling me a "weirdo" and "nerd" (and not in a loving, teasing way). Then he started hitting on women in front of me. he told me I was fat (totally NOT. I only weighed 130 AT MOST and I am 5'4". I had other guys hitting on me a lot). He started telling me how to dress. When I told him I didn't want to see him any more since he wasn't happy and obviously wanted to see other girls he was cool. Until he saw me talking to someone he knew at a party. He FLIPPED. Threatened to kill me. Tried to pull me out of a car that was about to move- I could have been crushed under the car. It was madness. Yet, all the people who knew us said it must have been MY fault, or that he just must have been drunk or something because he was always "so sweet." He then began STALKING me. He called my home incessantly and threatened my family (I was living with my parents). And STILL our "friends" took his side because I was always "off" and I was lucky to have him considering how weird I was (Everyone agreed I was good-looking, but I "wasted" it by being odd :? )

I told him to leave me alone or that I was going to file a RO. That freaked him out I guess and he finally backed off.

My grandmother was once married to a man like this too. Before they married he swept her off her feet. He was SO sweet and charismatic. He had many friends. When they married he turned into a serious wife-beater. Beat her within an inch of her life on MANY occasions. He also molested my aunt. She was so convinced it was HER fault because she MADE him do it by "upsetting" him she allowed this for years. It took my mother shoving a gun in his face to get rid of him. And the WHOLE time every one of their friends and fellow church-goers just could not say enough nice things about him.


Anyway, the point is this is how these sickos WORK. It doesn't matter how annoying, mean, rude, "fill-in-blank-with-negative-behavior" you are. There is no reason to hit anyone else, unless you fear for your life and are protecting yourself. it is a known fact that people who find themselves in these situations, do so in some kind of pattern. My husband explained it to me the other day:

Let's say a girl has a troubled family. Dad's a drunk and is abusive, generally scary. Mom is weak or absent. Dad goes on binges and gets abusive. Then he sobers up (enough) to feel bad (this ALWAYS happens) and gets all lovey and protective. The girl actually grows up associating some of the bad things with comfort. maybe the smell of drink, maybe something else. But it is something another man who has similar issues also shares. She sometimes grows up and actually NEEDS the bad thing to feel comfort. This leads her to go from one drunk abuser to another.

Now, I'm NOT saying that is what's going on here. Just using that as an example. Maybe something similar is going on, maybe not. But one thing is clear- these men are wolves in sheep's clothing. They are NOT nice. You did not create abusers. THEY decided to get all crazy. THEY are/were the problem. It is possible something about them gave you comfort but that thing was inappropriately associated with comfort at some time before. And that process would be unconscious, it's conditioning- not a logical process. But one can learn to identify it and learn to avoid it. IF that's what's going on. But I do not know you so I can't say for sure.

Again, all I can say for sure is that 1) it was NOT your fault. EVER (unless you were getting violent, which it doesn't sound like that was the case) and 2) They were abusers. Period.

I wish you better luck in the future :)

BTW, my husband and I have gotten into MANY fights. Some REALLY bad. He has thrown things, yelled, called me names, said awful things but has NEVER hit me. Not even close.

I dont think i agree with that comfort (or imprinting on a violent father) explanation as there does not seem to be research evidence for that, just psychodynamic analysis. it would not explain me termainating relationships when they became violent, with that explanation one would expect the person to stay in the relationship.

I ve had more relationships which were not violent so how come I was attratced to those guys if I only find violent men attractive? It just does not ring true.

60% of murder is spousel so there must be more to it than girls picking men like their fathers because it comforts them.



lotusblossom
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28 Jul 2010, 3:30 am

Claradoon wrote:
I don't know if this will be useful to you but here goes:-

My brother has a friend named Norman. The friendship has lasted 30 years. Norman is universally acknowledged to be absolutely the sweetest guy you could ever meet. And he is, every time we meet, what a great guy!

Norman's been married 3 times. We giggle that we have to be careful not to wear the same thing to the next wedding as to the last one.

And the thing that made me open my eyes: it was Christmas Eve. My 3yo nephew was helping by passing out the TV trays, one at a time, hoisting the folded TV tray up onto his shoulder and proudly presenting it to the adult, who would thank him and praise him. The little kid was in his glory for doing a grown-up thing at the party. And then he brought a TV tray to Norman, who took it, opened it - and it came apart in his hands, as TV trays often do. Without missing a beat, he looked at the little kid, gasped and said, "Look what you did!" The kid's eyes got wide. Norman went on, "You broke it!" This went on until the kid was white as a sheet and I grabbed him and said, "You didn't do that, go see Grandma."

The kid took off to be with Grandma in the kitchen and I sat there and waited for Norman to say something but he didn't - not one word.

So then I knew the truth about sweet Norman and his 3 marriages (so far). He's as mean as a snake.

but why did Norman want to be mean to people, why would he want to marry women who annoyed him that much? Why would he not choose to marry someone he liked more and did not find frustrating?



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28 Jul 2010, 3:42 am

Laz wrote:
Quote:
However if that were so then they would not have all said the same things and made exactly the same complaints.

She says she has seen me in a 'tantrum' and did not want to hit me so people are capable of not wanting to even if I was behaving terribly. She says I just need to have stricter criterior and terminate relationships if people show signs of not likeing me (ie criticising and complaining a lot).

On the one hand what you and she says sounds right but on the other hand I cant beleive I would keep getting this responce from people if I was not doing something seriously wrong.


Your response is actually quite typical of a survivor of domestic violence.

Part of what makes this kind of violence so dispicable is there is a psychological element to it that begins to make you think the fault lies within yourself. You then end up being your abusers greatest defender, even going against your own family members to stick up for the abuser.

Domestic violence is not some kind of 24/7 constant tyraid of abuse and physical assualt. It operates in a cycle. You have the incident of violence, then there is a honey moon period then the situation returns to a norm until another incident sparks and it is repeated all over again. Some people actually begin to develop serious psychological problems from this because they begin to think this is the only way someone shows that they love them and even if the relationship ends they will seek other people who treat them in this manor. Normal relationships will seem boring, and the cycle continues.

You do get female abusers. But for the most part this is a domain of male mysoginy. If you are a women who aspires to be assertive, independent and argumentative you will find in this life that there are plenty of men out there who delight in breaking you down and making you into subjegated slaves. It's as much branwashing as it is abusive.

but why do they want to go out with women who they find annoying? Its very clear when people meet me what Im like, Im very honest and open about my faults. I have made clear in every relationship that I am quite a difficult person and stroppy and like things done in certain ways. If they did not like stroppy women why would they date one, its not like I give an impression of being shy when people meet me. I wouldnt want to date someone I found annoying.

I think they must have started out likeing me and then changed their minds when they got to know me better or realised I was not going to change. I think perhaps they were people who did not have the confidence to leave the relationship so tried to be more horrible to get me to terminate the relationship, or perhaps they thought they could not do better so had to put up with me.

I just find it so strange that they all made the same complaints, with the same words, very creepy/eery, but it shows that they were not just arses as otherwise they would say other things not something as lame as me 'makeing obnoxious expressions'. How could someone want to hit someone because of their facial expression, and if that was an excuse surly you would come up with a better one. There must be something about my facial expressions which presses a button in men but I cant see it to be able to change it.



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28 Jul 2010, 3:58 am

lotusblossom wrote:
Claradoon wrote:
I don't know if this will be useful to you but here goes:-

My brother has a friend named Norman. The friendship has lasted 30 years. Norman is universally acknowledged to be absolutely the sweetest guy you could ever meet. And he is, every time we meet, what a great guy!

Norman's been married 3 times. We giggle that we have to be careful not to wear the same thing to the next wedding as to the last one.

And the thing that made me open my eyes: it was Christmas Eve. My 3yo nephew was helping by passing out the TV trays, one at a time, hoisting the folded TV tray up onto his shoulder and proudly presenting it to the adult, who would thank him and praise him. The little kid was in his glory for doing a grown-up thing at the party. And then he brought a TV tray to Norman, who took it, opened it - and it came apart in his hands, as TV trays often do. Without missing a beat, he looked at the little kid, gasped and said, "Look what you did!" The kid's eyes got wide. Norman went on, "You broke it!" This went on until the kid was white as a sheet and I grabbed him and said, "You didn't do that, go see Grandma."

The kid took off to be with Grandma in the kitchen and I sat there and waited for Norman to say something but he didn't - not one word.

So then I knew the truth about sweet Norman and his 3 marriages (so far). He's as mean as a snake.

but why did Norman want to be mean to people, why would he want to marry women who annoyed him that much? Why would he not choose to marry someone he liked more and did not find frustrating?

Because he is mean! He *likes* being mean. Maybe it's a power thing. If somebody is mean, then he will surround himself with people he can be mean to. The biggest question in the world is "Why?" - I don't think there's an answer to Why. Or maybe there are too many possible answers. One thing I'm sure of - it's *his* meanness and nothing to do with me.



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28 Jul 2010, 4:10 am

Claradoon wrote:
lotusblossom wrote:
Claradoon wrote:
I don't know if this will be useful to you but here goes:-

My brother has a friend named Norman. The friendship has lasted 30 years. Norman is universally acknowledged to be absolutely the sweetest guy you could ever meet. And he is, every time we meet, what a great guy!

Norman's been married 3 times. We giggle that we have to be careful not to wear the same thing to the next wedding as to the last one.

And the thing that made me open my eyes: it was Christmas Eve. My 3yo nephew was helping by passing out the TV trays, one at a time, hoisting the folded TV tray up onto his shoulder and proudly presenting it to the adult, who would thank him and praise him. The little kid was in his glory for doing a grown-up thing at the party. And then he brought a TV tray to Norman, who took it, opened it - and it came apart in his hands, as TV trays often do. Without missing a beat, he looked at the little kid, gasped and said, "Look what you did!" The kid's eyes got wide. Norman went on, "You broke it!" This went on until the kid was white as a sheet and I grabbed him and said, "You didn't do that, go see Grandma."

The kid took off to be with Grandma in the kitchen and I sat there and waited for Norman to say something but he didn't - not one word.

So then I knew the truth about sweet Norman and his 3 marriages (so far). He's as mean as a snake.

but why did Norman want to be mean to people, why would he want to marry women who annoyed him that much? Why would he not choose to marry someone he liked more and did not find frustrating?

Because he is mean! He *likes* being mean. Maybe it's a power thing. If somebody is mean, then he will surround himself with people he can be mean to. The biggest question in the world is "Why?" - I don't think there's an answer to Why. Or maybe there are too many possible answers. One thing I'm sure of - it's *his* meanness and nothing to do with me.

The people I was in relationships with definately did not seem like they were just mean or liked being mean. They all seemed quite distressed about the situation and did not seem to enjoy being aggressive. They all said they did not agree with violence against women and all deplored it when they had seen it on other peoples relationships.