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ddrapayo
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09 Aug 2010, 9:06 am

Since I was a young child, I have had a huge discrepancy between my Verbal and Performance IQs. For those who don't know, Verbal IQ is basic arithmetic, vocabulary, etc. while performance is picture completion, block arrangement into shapes, etc. In other words, performance tests non-verbal capabilities. My Verbal IQ score is around 150, while my performance IQ is only 95. My psych ed evaluator said that this was due to non-verbal learning disability. But, the report made it unclear whether this NVLD was part of my Asperger's, or a different disability. While those with ASD do often have difficulty with Nonverbal social cues, it was unclear to me whether these problems also include with non-verbal learning tasks, such as on the Performance IQ test. What is weird about this is my sister (a NT) has the exact same discrepancy between her two scores, and my mom suspects she does as well but has never been formally evaluated. So, I am wondering what other individuals with Asperger's have experienced with these evals, and whether my discrepancy is due specifically to my AS or another NVLD.



vivinator
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09 Aug 2010, 9:19 am

ddrapayo wrote:
Since I was a young child, I have had a huge discrepancy between my Verbal and Performance IQs. For those who don't know, Verbal IQ is basic arithmetic, vocabulary, etc. while performance is picture completion, block arrangement into shapes, etc. In other words, performance tests non-verbal capabilities. My Verbal IQ score is around 150, while my performance IQ is only 95. My psych ed evaluator said that this was due to non-verbal learning disability. But, the report made it unclear whether this NVLD was part of my Asperger's, or a different disability. While those with ASD do often have difficulty with Nonverbal social cues, it was unclear to me whether these problems also include with non-verbal learning tasks, such as on the Performance IQ test. What is weird about this is my sister (a NT) has the exact same discrepancy between her two scores, and my mom suspects she does as well but has never been formally evaluated. So, I am wondering what other individuals with Asperger's have experienced with these evals, and whether my discrepancy is due specifically to my AS or another NVLD.


do you have special interests?


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-as of now official dx is ADHD (inattentive type) but said ADD (314.00) on the dx paper, PDD-NOS and was told looks like I have NLD


fleeced
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09 Aug 2010, 9:22 am

I have good verbal communication and can pass exams because I am good at theory and essay writing but I'm useless at practical things and day to day functioning. Never been assessed though would be interesting to hear.


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lostD
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09 Aug 2010, 9:36 am

I've never been tested with official IQ tests but tests at school states that my verbal IQ is higher than my performance IQ (probably average for the performance IQ and above average for my verbal IQ).

The only thing I've been suspected to have is dyslexia/dyspraxia (thus I usually fail at spatial tests) and attention disorder, many disorders aren't diagnosed properly in my country so I can't tell but I've read that most aspies have this discrapency or any other kind of discrapency in their IQ tests, they can do better than most people in some parts of the tests and do poorly in others.

Any of these disorders are somewhat hereditary, many people who are dyslexic, dyspraxic, have asperger or something like that may find other people in their families who are NTs but display similar traits which could put them in a grey area between being NT and having a disorder.



ddrapayo
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09 Aug 2010, 10:16 am

vivinator wrote:
ddrapayo wrote:
Since I was a young child, I have had a huge discrepancy between my Verbal and Performance IQs. For those who don't know, Verbal IQ is basic arithmetic, vocabulary, etc. while performance is picture completion, block arrangement into shapes, etc. In other words, performance tests non-verbal capabilities. My Verbal IQ score is around 150, while my performance IQ is only 95. My psych ed evaluator said that this was due to non-verbal learning disability. But, the report made it unclear whether this NVLD was part of my Asperger's, or a different disability. While those with ASD do often have difficulty with Nonverbal social cues, it was unclear to me whether these problems also include with non-verbal learning tasks, such as on the Performance IQ test. What is weird about this is my sister (a NT) has the exact same discrepancy between her two scores, and my mom suspects she does as well but has never been formally evaluated. So, I am wondering what other individuals with Asperger's have experienced with these evals, and whether my discrepancy is due specifically to my AS or another NVLD.


do you have special interests?


If in asking this your purpose is to determine if I truly have Asperger's, the answer is yes to both. I have many signs of Asperger's. My purpose in making this thread was to attempt to figure out how much of the problem with tasks such as patterns and shape making are due to what.

Edit: With regards to the post above this one, yes, that may be true. I have an uncle (Mom's brother) who is probably borderline AS (not been officially diagnosed but we think he has some signs of it - may just be because we know the subtleties.) And the uncle's son (my cousin) has been diagnosed with ASD but we're not sure where on the spectrum he is.



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09 Aug 2010, 11:32 am

I don't think that alone is an indication for AS. I think there is a tendency for people on the autism spectrum to have a discrepancy between the two measures but it can go either way, i.e. one could have a higher performance IQ instead. On average NT's have a more balanced / well rounded IQ profile.

As for myself, my performance IQ is higher than my verbal IQ. I can write fairly well but it takes me more time than most people and I like to use a thesaurus and spell check because I constantly forget vocab and spelling.



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09 Aug 2010, 11:35 am

I found my papers from back when I had the full test done when I was 17.

verbal IQ I got a 186
Performance IQ I got a 163

and yeah, I know I use the "performance" part. Ive been using patterns to predict outcomes of various things in my and other peoples lives rather successfully.


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09 Aug 2010, 12:12 pm

ddrapayo wrote:
Since I was a young child, I have had a huge discrepancy between my Verbal and Performance IQs. For those who don't know, Verbal IQ is basic arithmetic, vocabulary, etc. while performance is picture completion, block arrangement into shapes, etc. In other words, performance tests non-verbal capabilities. My Verbal IQ score is around 150, while my performance IQ is only 95. My psych ed evaluator said that this was due to non-verbal learning disability. But, the report made it unclear whether this NVLD was part of my Asperger's, or a different disability. While those with ASD do often have difficulty with Nonverbal social cues, it was unclear to me whether these problems also include with non-verbal learning tasks, such as on the Performance IQ test. What is weird about this is my sister (a NT) has the exact same discrepancy between her two scores, and my mom suspects she does as well but has never been formally evaluated. So, I am wondering what other individuals with Asperger's have experienced with these evals, and whether my discrepancy is due specifically to my AS or another NVLD.



While my overall scores (FSIQ/VIQ/PIQ) have varied widely over time, I have always exhibited a similar discrepancy between VIQ and PIQ on all of the six WAIS tests i've had. There is alot of debate among professionals as to whether AS and NVLD are same disorder with a common etiology. A large percentage of people with AS display the typical NVLD characteristics. I have heard that the percentage who do is as high as 80% and as low as 25% depending on the source of this information.

Based on what you've said here, i'm assuming you've received an official AS dx. I myself have not, but I do exhibit most, if not all, the characteristics associated with NLD. Also...i've been dx-ed with schizotypal or schizoid personality disorder depending on particular neuropsych eval. People with these two personality disorders often exhibit many AS characteristics. So all these things considered, i'd say Asperger's would be a legitimate dx for me. There's just a few traits that I don't exhibit according to my psychologists, but I think I do possess these traits to some degree at least.


The information, vocabulary and similarities subtest scores on VIQ have always been my highest. The block design and object assembly subtest scores on PIQ have always been my lowest. This pattern of scores is extremely common for people with NLD. The object assembly test is no longer used on the latest edition of WAIS (WAIS-IV) because it had the lowest reliability coefficient (.70) of all the subtests. A new test called visual puzzles has been introduced on this latest edition of WAIS. My recent score on that one was the lowest out of all my subtest scores.

The bottom line is this...there is currently no general professional consensus as to whether NVLD and AS are one and the same. Nonetheless, a substantial percentage of those dx-ed with AS do exhibit the characteristics associated with NLD. I am participating in an autism research study at the University of Pittsburgh in September. I get the impression they are very eager to have me as participant. Based upon a few things they've said, it seems like they're eager because I exhibit many NVLD characteristics and have not been officially dx-ed with AS. I think they want to compare study participants who haven't been formally dx-ed with AS (but still display alot of the traits common to both NVLD and AS) to those who have a formal AS dx.



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09 Aug 2010, 1:16 pm

According to Dr. Byron Rourke.....Asperger's is a "Level 1" disorder meaning that
virtually all of the NLD assets and deficits are manifest in it.

Other "Level 1" disorders include Williams syndrome, Callosal Agenesis,Velocardiofacial syndrome, Early Shunted Hydrocephalus, Spina Bifida, etc....


I'm not so sure Rourke is correct here, since many people officially dxed with AS seem to exhibit few, if any, NLD characteristics.

For example...another poster in this thread claimed that their PIQ is higher than their VIQ.

If this poster is officially dx-ed with AS....then i'd say that most, if not all, the NVLD-related deficits are not an issue for him.


Still...the NLD pattern of assets and deficits are common enough in those dxed with AS, so I suppose Rourke is correct to the extent that NLD manifests itself in a disproportionate number of those with AS.



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09 Aug 2010, 1:41 pm

My Performance IQ and Verbal IQ were identical, according to my AS diagnosis papers. As I recall, though, I felt at the time that I'd have done better on most of the performance tests if the Psychologist had not been watching me, as it made me quite self-conscious and destroyed my ability to focus But perhaps that's the point of the test.



lostD
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09 Aug 2010, 1:44 pm

Could anyone describe the symptoms of ASD and the symptoms of NVD, please ? I fail to see the real difference (apart from the fact that no link I've found talk about hypersensensitivity in NVD) since no sites I've found give the same description and wikipedia just explains that a diagnosis of AS is often given instead of NVD.

Thank you.



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09 Aug 2010, 2:28 pm

Mine was only a 15 point difference just about, but my highest score was only 102 in verbal. (My working memory was 88, performance was 92 or so).



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09 Aug 2010, 3:19 pm

lostD wrote:
Could anyone describe the symptoms of ASD and the symptoms of NVD, please ? I fail to see the real difference (apart from the fact that no link I've found talk about hypersensensitivity in NVD) since no sites I've found give the same description and wikipedia just explains that a diagnosis of AS is often given instead of NVD.

Thank you.


The main diagnostic criteria for AS focus on difficulties with social skills, while NLD diagnosis relies more on a pattern of neuropsychological strengths and weaknesses. The three "core" areas of deficit for NLD are visual-spatial perception, visual-motor coordination, and social skills. You do not have to be severely impaired in all three however- your social skills can be mostly intact and you can still be diagnosed with NLD if you have deficits in the other two areas and demonstrate the typical pattern of NLD strengths and weaknesses. While to be diagnosed with AS you have to have significant social skills deficits, plus special interests or some other form of "restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities." NLD has no special interests requirement.

So you can have someone with NLD who doesn't look much like someone with AS because their social skills are decent, but you can also have someone with NLD who has severe difficulties with social interaction but does not have a special interest. From reading I have done, in cases where someone clearly meets requirements for NLD but also "looks like" someone with AS, diagnosis is decided based on whether or not they exhibit special interests.

For an example of someone with NLD but decent social skills, see:

Tera's NLD Jumpstation

Addendum: Wow, that is a huge VIQ/PIQ difference. I don't know that I've heard of one that large before. My VIQ/PIQ difference is 27 points, though if you look at the "index scores", which are more sensitive, my verbal-comprehension index is 39 points higher than my perceptual-organizational index. The set of four index scores from the old WISC-III IQ test corresponds to the set of four "composite" scores on the newer Wechsler tests (verbal comprehension, perceptual reasoning, working memory, and processing speed).


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09 Aug 2010, 4:04 pm

lostD wrote:
Could anyone describe the symptoms of ASD and the symptoms of NVD, please ? I fail to see the real difference (apart from the fact that no link I've found talk about hypersensensitivity in NVD) since no sites I've found give the same description and wikipedia just explains that a diagnosis of AS is often given instead of NVD.

Thank you.




I saved this article from NLDline...scroll down to the chart for the supposed differences and similarities between NLD and Asperger's.

http://www.nldline.com/yvonna.htm



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09 Aug 2010, 4:22 pm

buryuntime wrote:
Mine was only a 15 point difference just about, but my highest score was only 102 in verbal. (My working memory was 88, performance was 92 or so).



The spread between my VIQ and PIQ has never been less than 19 points. There was a 57 point spread between my Verbal comprehension index score (136) and my perceptual-organizational index score (79) on the most recent WAIS I took a month ago. My Verbal scores are usually in the superior-very superior range and my performance scores have always been between borderline-high average. My performance scores were the lowest they've ever been on this most recent test at 79. My performance scores were the highest they've ever been on the test I took prior to this one at 111.

My performance IQ has managed to drop 32 points in a matter of four years.

Go figure.


Anyway...the discrepancy between VIQ/PIQ has never been greater than it was on this most recent WAIS. Still...it was 44 points on the previous one and 31, 25, 22 and 19 points on all others i've taken respectively.