Clarification on my beliefs.

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I don't agree with anything fs has said other than his basic premise that a lot of young NT American women have a sense of entitlement. Anything beyond that, I disagree with him.

The point of my thread was actually supposed to be beneficial for Aspie men. Young NT dating (under 30) isn't a sincere person's game. It involves a lot of mixed signals, power play...things that we usually aren't good at, and don't want to take part in anyway.

The average 20something NT woman doesn't want to be treated like she's a great person. I'm not saying she wants to be mistreated either...but she doesn't want to be to be revered...and that's not our fault. It speaks more on their insecurities (remember I'm speaking of the average young NT woman, not aspies or older NT women) that she doesn't believe that someone could actually admire her and not play games with her.

The average young NT woman also is basically a genius at social interactions and social intuition...and Aspie men are usually the anti-thesis, which doesn't bode well for us and even if an NT woman gives us a chance, she likely will walk all over us.

I'm in no way saying to give up, but I'm saying that you're more likely to find true love, sincerity, and no game-playing at a later age.

I also know how bad I felt (and continue to feel) when my ex mishandled the break-up, and believe me, any fantasies you have in the meantime about love and relationships and a girlfriend are better than the reality of the ugliness of relationships when they don't work out, which they often don't.

I'd actually like to try to contribute to your discussion in a positive way, but I'm short on time and some mod work has been distracting me. I just want you to know you are not ignored.

i understand taht you are frustrated by your relationship not working out, but do you think it is fair to make an assumption about all NT women based on that? many women love to be admired - both NT and Aspie women, of all ages.

This is also based on experiences from my friends and acquaintences as well, and what drives people like fs over the edge. The answer isn't to become fs, it's to just smarten up and be careful who you fall for and learn to be happy single or not single.

Im not crazy about the position of those who want to bring back arranged marriage (I hear that one way too often here). Since it just reeks of entitled loserdom.

I do agree with the sexual marketplace concept ("older women are nicer because their buying power (looks) have faded."

Also given that we live in an age of relative prosperity, The ability to provide has dropped in value on the sexual marketplace for men. For AS men, the ability to provide stability is often all that we have. Some ASmen will cry about it, others will adapt.

what? do you honestly think that attitudes that come from people like fs are caused by NT women? i think that there are internal reasons for ideas like that - don't blame the women please.

It's a combination of himself and the way he's been treated. He's probably been rejected for being not good looking enough or not whatever enough, and because of his mental condition, he's choosing to deal with it improperly.

maybe. or maybe they heard his beliefs and rejected him based on that... just like i could be rejected based on being an atheist, but that doesn't make it the man's fault!! !

It has everything to do with experiences. I got to see a man destroy himself and damage others to keep an evil selfish woman happy.

It seems like you are letting your ideology/ secular religion color how you examine things.

I've had many negative experiences with men including an abusive relationship...should I blame all men? It's ironic how it's ok to attack women but as soon as women argue their point they're somehow molded by society as if they had no head or a mind of their own. If you can't see women as human beings who also have feelings then you're not exactly going to luck out with the right ladies. I too struggle in the relationship department but I don't go around blaming men.

And Rick...I got to see a girl die of an overdose of drugs and she had been molested by her father and I also come from a family where men have been the abusers. Personal experiences don't validate the majority of assumptions you make about a group of people. If this were the case there wouldn't be laws against hate crimes. Frustrated people have always needed a scapegoat for their own personal problems. Most people don't want to find something wrong with themselves as it's human nature.

I think many Americans, male and female, have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. This is not a factor unique to women. It is a side effect of living in an over-commercialized society, that sells unattainable images over mass media. The problem isn't the sense of entitlement per se, as the fact that woman's sense of what she is entitled to may run into conflict with the man's sense of what he is entitled to. It definitely conflicts the concept of dating because it raises expectations and, in fact, creates many false ones. But, again, I'm seeing this on both sides. It isn't a fault unique to women.



My husband and I got married (first time for both of us) when we were 36 and 37, respectively. There is a lot to be said for growing up a little more before getting serious. It would have been nice if I felt some assurance as a single twenty something that it was going to happen in my future, but life doesn't work that way.



I'm not sure I understand your conclusions. What women do and don't like in the way of admiration varies quite a bit, I know for a fact. But, beyond that, in the end, everyone has to remember: you've got to marry the real person, and not the fantasy. I have a friend who men idolize, and it has been surprisingly difficult for her. They refuse to see the real her, no matter how much she flaunts her faults in their faces (which I've seen her do, and the ability of some men to justify it is beyond astounding). She's ended up divorced twice because, ultimately, in real life it is real people who have to make the marriage work, not two images. If a woman is comfortable that you are seeing the real her, warts and all, but able to adore her anyway, then it generally is good (sometimes a person is just moving too fast, and the adoration comes off as false). But if she thinks you've just been snowed by the image, it may be flattering, but there is no relationship there. Some women like to play with it for a while, and may enjoy the power enough to make a marriage of it but, for most people, a real foundation is needed, and falsehoods cannot work.



Or, she'll support you and make your social life for you. My husband readily admitted that is exactly what he was expecting me to do as we got serious ... until he discovered that I didn't exactly have the same talent for it that his prior fiance had had. Also, doesn't the concept of being genius at something imply it is the exception and not the rule? Plenty of women are really good at making horrendous social mistakes, NT or not.



No argument from me there. But, just because the odds get better in some respects, I wouldn't discourage any man, NT or AS, from pursuing a possible "real thing" that presents itself to him.



We've all had that pain. It can't be avoided. Most people's life journeys require making a boat load of mistakes and learning from them. My husband ran away from life for about 5 years after he broke up with his prior finance, and we actually met in the middle of that period. Where he saw the connection between us and refused to ask me out. The guy I dated in between that first meet and our eventual first date is probably the biggest sore point in his life. As if I was supposed to wait while he figured things out, given that he never told me he was interested and was trying to figure things out? I don't know, he probably couldn't have changed anything, because he just wasn't ready. But, again, hiding from the things that are right in front of you because you don't want pain isn't a very good answer. You still get pain. Living life isn't about avoiding all pain, just about avoiding unnecessary pain, and then making the best out of all the good things you've got.

Some of this other discussion ... sometimes it seems like single and frustrated people spend an awful lot of time listening to other single and frustrated people, and avoiding the actual realities that exist.

fs found a solution that works for him, and for that I am glad. He can promote that solution if he wants; the solution doesn't bother me at all. I know all sorts of happy relationships and far be it for me to tell others what their relationship should look like. Each one is unique.

But he most definitely found the wrong scapegoat, and reached the wrong conclusions about the people he did not end up with. Given that he didn't marry any of them, just how well did he get to know that pool of women? Not very well. He is basing his conclusions on what must be outside observations and things he has read from other people making outside observations. How could he not be? I would be shocked if it turned out he could claim close friendships or relationships of any sort with even a dozen American women.

But I can.

And I can claim solid friendships and working relationships with over a dozen American men.

Not a universal sample, but a diverse enough and solid enough one to say without a doubt, he's got it all wrong.

I read so many do's and don'ts on boards like this but far too many of them involving trying to present yourself as someone you are not. That is doomed to fail. You can't act a relationship, you have to BE in one. Real people make relationships work, not images. Images are a huge asset in getting to date 1, but after that, some substance has to exist.

I've been on many many many date 1s.

I've been on far less date 2s.

Sometimes I said no, more times they didn't ask. When you finally spend some quality of time with someone, there is a good chance you discover that you just don't match up. It does, after all, take a LOT to match up.

There is no right or wrong way to be as a person, and there is no right or wrong way to be on a date (with some exceptions, but those are pretty easy to list, and I'm sure the women here have already filled the guys in on their absolute "no" lists, and vice-a-versa.) What there are, are people who are suitable for each other, and people who are not. People who have chemistry together, and people who do not.

BTW, I met my husband about the most old-fashioned way possible: my sister introduced us.

Good luck out there.

It seems trite to say this, but the likelihood of coming to any meaningful generalization is slim to nil.

All people comes with their character flaws, and these flaws are not exclusively based in whether a person is an NT or is on the spectrum. Some of us are selfish, some generous. Some of us are shy, others gregarious. Some of us are honest about our needs, others are passive agressive, others demanding.

I do not think that we are at a disadvantage in dating and romance, but I think that we are at a disadvantage in meeting potential people in the conventional, NT settings like bars and dances.

So perhaps the issue isn't to give up on dating, but change the venue. Among my circle, not one of us met our spouse/partner/bf-gf in a conventional way.

yes, very good advice!

There's an interesting article in Time magazine about women, the challenges they face in today's world, their expectations, etc. (based on the Rockefeller Foundation's survey about gender issues).

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packa ... -2,00.html

I'd suggest any man who's looking for a relationship give this article their full attention. Understand the challenges that women face today; understand their options and abilities; then give some thought to what you have to offer a woman in terms of dealing with those challenges.

*Btw, here's a little fact for all you guys who like to put out the "woman as heartless gold digger" theory (you know, that women only want men for their paycheck): 40% of women are the primary breadwinner in their family. That's particularly interesting, considering the continuing wage gap between men and women (women are paid significantly less than male counterparts for doing the same job).

I don't know the basis for the OP's following conclusion: "The point of my thread was actually supposed to be beneficial for Aspie men. Young NT dating (under 30) isn't a sincere person's game. It involves a lot of mixed signals, power play...things that we usually aren't good at, and don't want to take part in anyway." Currently, the average age of women marrying for the first time is 26; average age for men marrying for the first time is 27. Yes, the divorce rate still seems to hover around 50%, so the maturity and expectations of people entering into these marriages seems to remain in question. However, the desire to enter into a permanent relationship in the "under 30" crowd really can't be questioned.

Good point, HopeGrows, if someone wants to be in a relationship, understanding the world from the viewpoint of the other gender helps a lot.

Relationships are not about what you get, but what you are willing to give. If anyone wants to doubt how much giving can be involved, you can read this recent thread http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt136092.html.

Until you are willing to say that you would stick it out and catch someone as their world crumbles around them and threatens to take you with it, you should question if you are willing to give enough to make a relationship work.

Not that any of us would willing walk into difficult situations, knowing how much pain it will hold, but life is going to throw them at you fast and furious no matter how well prepared you are. I was a newlywed when my SIL got terminally ill, and I spent my Chirstmas away from home and crying because pretty much none of the in-laws wanted me there, but I had to stick it out and put on a pretty face because my husband needed me to be there.

THAT is what relationships are about.

Knowing how hard it can get, of course people avoid known complications going in. They are going to avoid knowing they have to support you financially with no back up plan for their own failures and trials, and they are going to avoid being with someone who makes no effort to back them up emotionally or with daily life chores. You've got to show what you are offering in return, even if it's just the amazing ability to make them laugh while fires rage around. Show how you will make their life better, so that the exchange with all the ways their life could end up worse will seem worth it.

I do think it is all going to get more difficult for young men in the coming decade, because the education system is out of whack and more women are leaving it willing and able to get well paying jobs than men are (in many colleges, a key step to future financial success, 60% of the students are now women). That fault lies securely in the education system, it starts with some policies in very young ages that put boys at a disadvantage (I can point you to the book if you doubt me), and both men and women are going to pay the price, with equal relationships getting more difficult to form. It is HARD to be the one who is going to have spend more time holding up the other partner, and who makes that choice before realizing they are in love? No one. The natural filter is when you are deciding whom to date; you apply the filter to reduce the odds that you are going to carry the majority of burdens in the relationship. Anyone looking for a relationship needs to understand that, and that it isn't superficial, and it is entirely valid for the one simple reason: once you commit, you are supposed to stay through thick and thin.