NT in love with an Aspie - what are my chances?

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You have this potentially life-changing information to share with him (life-changing for both himself and his son), but you don't want to "give it away for free?" You'd like some "reward" for sharing this information with him? Unbelievable.

I have more empathy for his wife than it might seem. Having a relationship with him is extremely difficult, and ultimately impossible if you don't know about AS and learn how to adapt, communicate, and shift your expectations. You're never quite sure what he thinks, what he wants, or how he feels about you, and you feel like you give every speck of your being for nothing in return. You constantly wonder what you're doing wrong, and then you wonder why you're wasting your time. The emotional security you felt in the beginning fades, until you find yourself doing things just to see if your existence even matters to him. You get your brains scrambled and your ego ground down to nothing, and feel like you're starving to death. Leaving is the only time he suddenly seems to care, but by then you don't believe it, and you may be already involved with someone else, because getting your emotional needs met elsewhere was the only way to stay sane. Maybe you unleash all that frustration in one final blowout - and he tells you you're the crazy one.

So I get exactly why she left. I get why every woman has left. Many moons ago, I left too - because a judgmental busybody who'd never had a conversation with him or spent a minute alone with him pronounced him no good and pressured me to abandon him. I still loved him, I wasn't angry, and I knew something wasn't adding up, but she didn't give me a chance to think it through. On some level, I knew I'd made the biggest mistake of my life, and here we are.

I'm in the midst of a thought process here. He and I have ruined each others' lives a few times now, and I sure as heck don't want to screw up again. Men who find out in their 40s, after so much damage is already done, aren't always real thrilled, and my guy has suicidal tendencies. After all he's already been through, I have to consider that telling him might do more harm than good. Basil is the first person who's got me thinking it might not, but still, it's not an intervention with an alcoholic. You don't just ring up and say, "guess what! you're not wired right! what a relief!" with the smug, cheerful certainty that you've "saved" the poor bastard, who may look upon the vast wreckage of his life, see it was all preventable if only he'd known sooner, and then blow his brains out.

Basil and Gavin helped me distinguish AS issues from emotional/psychological ones, which was extremely helpful, because I'd say my aspie, minus the AS, has a boatload of them. I suppose the "reward" I want is just for things to go well this time, and not to end in disaster as they have every time our lives have touched in the past. So I have to be ready too, and I'm not sure I'm there just yet.

Last edited by foomith on 12 Sep 2010, 1:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

@Foomith: I wouldn't have checked the thread again if you'd just edited the earlier post, so I'm glad you posted again. Sorry not to post earlier, but I didn't see the message until just before I had to work.

To understand the context of my finding out about having Asperger's, you have to know that the original Star Trek came out when I was a small kid. So, of course, I identified with Mr. Spock, and wanted to be logical and knowledgeable about lots of things when I grew up . As I got older, I realized that the "no emotions" thing wasn't a realistic goal , but I always knew I was different from the people around me. So when my mother started telling me that she'd been reading about something called Asperger's Syndrome and that I had displayed pretty much every characteristic feature as a small child, my response was that this seemed like a logical analysis. I'd already read about the Syndrome, and noticed that it seemed to describe me, but figured that since it affected less than one person in 100 it wasn't likely that I actually had it. After that conversation with my mother, I finally had a name for how I was different from the people around me, and validation that my thinking that I'm different had been correct all along. Not things to get upset about. (Besides, NT's are so illogical who'd want to be one of them? Vulcans: much cooler!)

But unfortunately all of that makes me a poor predictor of why your guy might get angry. As noted, this isn't at all something that I'd get angry about. However, somebody who'll get angry because a friend gives them advice, advice that they can then take or leave, isn't really a healthy person to get into a relationship with. I realise that giving up at this point would be something like quitting a marathon with only a couple of hundred metres to go, and I'm not suggesting you do that, but maybe, if he does get angry over this and blame you (which IMO he has no justification to do), you can take it as a sign that you're better off outside this particular romance? Because unless he changes, which you can't count on, there'll always be another thing he might get angry over that you have tiptoe around.

As a side-note to that, you don't seem very thick-skinned to me. You mention that you "almost committed suicide" after one of his meltdowns and that you were taking "Xanax" for a while. Those aren't reactions characteristic of thick-skinned people.

It is possible that your aspie might have resolved not to get involved with a woman again. I did, at one point, resign myself (slightly different) that I was never going to have a girlfriend again, and there was a lot of peace in that. (And after I was told that I was an Aspie I eventually realised that that was why I hadn't been able to get girlfriends, and that now that I knew the problem I could solve it.)

It also seems plausible to me that the son might be "on the spectrum". I certainly inherited my symptoms from my father, and I know a couple who both IMO have Aspergers' and I understand both of their kids have been diagnosed with it. (I found about about the kids when I started to bring the subject up with the father: he immediately mentioned the kids, and I was thinking "look in a mirror", but he didn't seem enthused about hearing so I didn't press the issue.) Similarly, it's also possible that your guy inherited it from his parents.

Incidentally, I've also been in situations where women I'd "rejected" would have been more than welcome back in my life. Me: "Is she interested in me? I haven't a clue! I know! I'll stop calling her! If she's interested in me, she'll call me!" <crickets> Me a few weeks later:

As to how his ex could use it against him? If she's looking for an excuse to demonize him, it's an excuse. There's a woman in Australia who's the ex-wife of a successful Aspie who did all the things "good guys" are supposed to do for their wives, so she's using the fact that he's an Aspie to blame him for "emotional abuse" (as in lack of emotional attention). Your friend's wife might also blame their son's having it (if the son does) on her ex-husband, which would then be another thing she'd feel entitled to get revenge for.

"The vast wreckage of his life"? He has a "rock-solid" career, good health, a woman who loves him, and a child. If that's "vast wreckage" I want some wreckage (I have 2 out of 4 and consider myself blessed: if you have good health you can get the others.) Yes, there is that minor detail of an upcoming divorce, but, you know, divorces happen in this society. Worse, that the woman who loves him isn't the mother of his child , and that he's not going to see his child as often as he'd like (would he rather not have a child at all? because a lot of guys don't get that option) but #### happens and is the price of having a life.

And if he does have Asperger's, it's probably a fundamental reason why he chose his particular career. Without it, he'd probably have landed on his feet wherever he'd ended up, but it might not have been as much fun as where he is. Academe and Asperger's are a good fit if you're functional enough to pull it off. Many NT guys pick their jobs for the money, not because the job's pleasant.

Before he blows his brains out, he might want to think about the impact that'll have on his child. I've been through the situation of a loved one committing suicide, and the emotional trauma is not something you can imagine without going through it. I'd rather get divorced 10 times over than have that happen to me again, and I was an adult friend with a crush, not the suicide's child!(! !! !)

But it's not your job to talk to him about this funk. He should get counseling about the suicidal stuff. Do you talk to his male friends at all? Maybe they can help.

Hi Basil! Glad you came back.

LOL! Yes, being an NT has its disadvantages.

So you analyzed it with Spock-like logic. And it validated that there was a name and a reason for why you were different, which you already knew. Good, good. I suspect my Aspie craves concrete answers. He is spectacularly successful professionally, but his personal life is an equally spectacular mess. So far, the only explanations he has for that are bad luck, prejudice, God hates him, women are psychos, etc. So many women have accused him of being evil and crazy, I think he half-believes it.

Using your logic, I bet he knows that the likelihood that every woman he's been with just happens to have been a closet psychopath is probably pretty slim. At times, he's told me that he doesn't want to scramble my brains or hurt me again, so he's aware that he has something to do with it. But he still has no tangible answers. That must drive him nuts. I had no tangible answers, and it drove me nuts. Hence, the suicidal depression and anxiety - but those were very unusual circumstances. I'm back to my thick-skinned self (for an NT, anyway). Learning about AS saved MY sanity. Perhaps it would have the same effect for him.

But, he might get angry because he's had as many relationships as any NT male, but they've all ended badly. All this time, he's been judged by NT standards and held to NT expectations, because he's never been given any logical reason to believe he couldn't live up to them. Except, by now, the long string of failed relationships in his wake is rather compelling evidence. To find out now that none of it had to happen - whew.

But, it occurs to me. He gets mad and blames me when he's missing the social context and things don't make sense. It seemed random to me and I never knew what might trigger it. Reading about AS ought to make sense. Hm.

However, he also has a very brittle ego, and is highly reactive to any suggestion that there's something wrong with him. He fought with his ex about their son, whom the school had identified as having a learning disability (hyperlexia. They didn't make the connection to ASDs). He didn't want him to be medicated or put in special classes because he didn't want him to feel like there was something wrong with him. That was more important to him than investigating and addressing the problem.

And you thought only NTs are illogical.


Exactly, and an excellent point. That's why you're persuading me to go for it. Even if he gets angry and rejects it at first, I can handle it, and I think curiosity will get the best of him. And yes, if he dismisses it, I've said myself, I doubt a relationship with him would be possible.


Aw. That's so sad. But really good to know. That's why I'm inclined to see this through.


True. But she'll be nasty anyway. I actually thought he could use it as leverage against her ("you see, I was a good husband and you just couldn't recognize it.") And it might give him some parental power, since he'd have a basis to tell the school they're handling it all wrong. But that's many steps down the line and we can only speculate.

You are 100% correct, and that's my outlook too. But "vast wreckage" is very likely how he sees it. He's always had a warped perception of himself that does not match reality. He has occupied powerful positions throughout his schooling and career, yet he feels sorely victimized. He's hypersensitive and sometimes takes offense at compliments. He is devastatingly handsome, but he's insulted when women throw themselves at him, because it makes him feel like a piece of meat. He's looks and acts the classic alpha male in many ways, and is the envy of just about everyone, but he thinks he's a waste as a human being. I couldn't get a date with anyone who'd known him, because even the other alpha males were terrified of being compared (and, I must say, rightfully so). But even when I explain such things, it doesn't register, or he dismisses it as foolishness. I think life has been good to him, all things considered, but in his mind, the bumps and bruises he's suffered along the way eclipse everything else.

So, I think Gavin is right - if he was going to kill himself, it would've happened by now. I doubt he'd care about the impact on anyone else. I've been there, and I thought my family would be better off without me. His thoughts wouldn't have to go far to reach the same conclusion. I've been praying the anger would keep him going, and it appears it has. But he is emotionally extremely fragile, which is why I want to consider every angle before I take the leap and tell him about AS.

Last edited by foomith on 12 Sep 2010, 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

P.S. One more concern I have is that some men who find out later in life use it as a license for bad behavior. They don't see a reason to try any more and just blame everything on the condition, when in fact they are capable of changing if they just made an effort. This is actually my uppermost concern. My guy has had it with trying his best and always getting shafted in the end anyway. So there's a good chance it wouldn't be the "rebirth" it was for me - I'd just be handing him a scientific excuse to give up that no one could challenge. He's built almost impenetrable psychological defenses, and he could use AS to seal them airtight. This is what I mean when I say, I worry that telling him wouldn't pay off.

I've come close to mentioning AS to him a couple of times, and this is the #1 reason I've held back. Sounds like it comes down to whether you have a generally positive or negative outlook on life, and my guy isn't exactly Mr. Sunshine. As you pointed out, I agree he has all kinds of reasons to stay positive and hopeful, but he definitely doesn't see it that way. He's obsessed with being normal and looking normal, while knowing full well he isn't. I've always loved how "abnormal" he is, and that's deeply meaningful to him. But to him, normal = good and abnormal = bad. He's a very harsh critic of himself and takes a lot for granted. E.g., I live ten miles away, and haven't seen him in almost two years. I can be patient for now, but our lives are passing us by, and I can't wait forever.

I feel like Christ on the cross, atoning for the sins of every woman who's ever hurt him. Obviously, I can't change the past or redeem his faith in human nature. But so far the offer of a good 40 years with me (and more children if he likes) hasn't moved him. I've never put it so bluntly, so maybe he really doesn't know that's what's being offered. But I'm pretty sure he does, and for now, I think he prefers the safety of the fantasy to the risk of the scary, uncertain reality.

Distinguishing between AS issues and emotional, psychological, and developmental problems is about the toughest nut to crack, IMO. There doesn't seem to be a neat line to draw - as much as I would like there to be. You have to realize that an Aspie man who's been traumatized psychologically and emotionally is not necessarily going to respond to therapy in the same way an NT man might (if he's willing to go to therapy). An Aspie man with unresolved emotional and psychological issues is very, very difficult to deal with. The Aspie men I've been involved with (romantically or platonically) tend to externalize the cause of problems in their relationships. That's beyond frustrating, because my impression is that these men either tend to believe that finding "the right woman" is the solution, or they blame AS (as though nothing can be done to mitigate their symptoms), or conclude that Aspies cannot have successful relationships. Even when they see patterns in their lives and relationships (with woman after woman), there can be such incredible resistance to accepting that the problem might be their own behavior or perspective. It's very hard to meet someone half-way when "meeting half-way" is not a tool in his/her toolkit.

Also, because a man is aware of his diagnosis doesn't necessarily translate into an "aha" moment. You don't know how this particular man is going to process that information, and/or the kind of impact it will have on him. I made some pretty naive assumptions about just what the statement, "I have Asperger's Syndrome" means to a person. I assumed it would mean that the person involved would have learned everything they could about AS, would have connected symptoms to their behavior, would accept that they had to appropriate and or modify their behavior toward a partner, etc. I was wrong. Each Aspie is going to deal with and accept their diagnosis in his/her own way - and that can mean not doing much at all about it.

You just cannot control how he's going to react to your idea that he is Aspie. My intention isn't to make a case for you to stay silent - I think it's too important to remain silent about it. But you're not going to get any assurances that he'll thank you for the information, or go see a doctor for a professional diagnosis, or feel relief that there's a concrete explanation for the problems he's experienced his whole life. But IMO, you can't spend your life trying to manage his "closeted" disability. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're right and he's an Aspie. Knowing that isn't magical - he's still got to figure out what, if anything, he wants to do differently with his life. He's got to figure out how he's going to cope - or not. Aspie or not, it's still his life, and he's going to make the decisions on how he's going to live it. You at least owe it to yourself to find out if knowledge of his disability will make a difference in how he lives his life.

Hey there again. Well I'm glad you took my biting your head off over the "he's not unsuccessful" thing as constructive (it was intended that way, but one never knows how these things will look over the Internet).

Well, now we know why you're sticking around! LOL

I do find it amusing that distinctly non-alpha non-normal "nice guy" me is potentially helping THIS guy (who is a jerk) get a woman!


Yes. You're the person on the spot, and we only know about this situation through your description, and our response comes back to you through two layers of information loss over the Internet. So at the end of the day you have to make this call.


Don't pray for that. Pray for ends not means, and trust whichever deity or saint you're praying to to deal with the means. You don't want him angry, you want him mentally hale and not dead, so pray for those things.


Would you be waiting around for a guy who had his negative behaviours but was homely and only moderately successful? You're not sacrificing yourself. You're gambling, betting years of your life in hopes of a high payoff. It's not an unreasonable gamble. But it's not self-sacrificing, although it will feel that way if you lose the bet.


Two years! At two years, I think the "wait and see" tactic has passed its due date. And in two years since you last saw him, a lot could have changed that you wouldn't know about by following him remotely. I think you should arrange to physically meet him again before making any commitments. Not just whether his appearance has changed, which it might have during a stressful period in his fourties, but you don't even know that he's still single.


Hmmm. I've no idea whether HE knows this or not: obviously he's quite different from me. If he does know it then I think "two years" is your answer. But since I've learned I have Asperger's, part of my standard introduction to any woman who's seriously considering a relationship with me is this: "Another consequence is that I'm not going to get any hints. None. No matter how obvious the hint may seem to you, don't even bother, because I'm not going to get it. I've missed hints like a woman whom I thought was extremely sexy and whom I had been pursuing for three months inviting me to her apartment alone, then showing me to her bedroom, then asking if I'd like to look more closely at her bed. No, I'm not a carpenter, why would I want to look more closely at your bed? If I miss that sort of hint, what are the chances I'm going to figure out that you're trying to remind me that it's my turn to wash the dishes? Say it out loud or take responsibility that I'm not going to know." My girlfriend has told me that this warning has saved our relationship several times, as she thought that I was playing mind games with her until she remembered what I'd said, gave in and told me what she wanted instead of trying to hint. I was never aware of most of these incidents.

Don't worry, you're not helping him. You've helped me sort out the issues and reach a resolution. He is what he is, and for now, I prefer the fantasy to the reality too. I must keep my own counsel, and it is time for me to exit the discussion. Thank you very much for your insights.

Sorry I beat a hasty exit. Some of this is upsetting and I had to take a step back. If nothing else I'm glad I "met" you, Basil. I feel like I made a new friend.

Admittedly, that isn't irrelevant. But more than that, he's the puzzle I can never quite solve.

I've given thought to why everyone thinks he's an a**hole, versus why I'm convinced he's really not. The unifying thread in all his jerky behavior is that he ignores the context (and tramples other people's feelings), focusing only on the words to the exclusion of all else. But *ignoring* is volitional behavior, and the blowout with his wife is what convinced me he isn't *capable* of inferring information from context. In his mind, that was a matter of survival, and he blew it. In my mind, he shot himself in the foot, and then got angry when I didn't want to shoot him in the other one. It made no f*cking sense to either one of us.

Your "bed inspection" story is similar. You were expected to "take the hint." To infer information from context. You had the best of intentions, but only the words registered, and she probably felt hurt, humiliated, and rejected. You say you were never aware of most of these incidents.

Similarly, I suspect my guy can't take the hint, but on a larger scale. He's blindsided every time a woman dumps him. The "writing on the wall" is bloody obvious to me, but he never sees it coming. Likewise, I think the fact that I've stuck around for two years is meaningless to him. Not because he's a jerk or has cruel or bad intentions, but because he cannot infer the passion, commitment, and loyalty intrinsic in that behavior. Being patient and subtle has never gotten me anywhere with him, and I suspect this "inability to take a hint" is why.

The difference between the two is micro vs. macro, but it appears to me that the mechanism is the same. Can you comment on that? Do you think Aspie's context-impairment is limited to small interactions with one person, or might it also extend to the big picture? And if so, what should I do differently?

I agree. There seems to be an email functionality on this site if you want to try it?

I was rude to you in that last post, and apologize for it.

However, I do think the feeling that you are martyring yourself is unhealthy. To the extent that you're gambling for a rich prize, it's good that you recognize that's what you're doing, as you'll be less embittered IF you lose the gamble. To the extent that you're martyring yourself you should stop: that's Christ's job not yours, isn't it? (I'm not a Christian but I am a deist). I do think you should do something to resolve this situation relatively soon: not instantly but when you've figured out your best option.


It wouldn't be a problem if I was. Jokes aside, "nice guy", "jerk", and "alpha male" are all situational, not absolutes. He's been a nice guy at times in his life, probably many times in his life, and if he's been that successful in his career he must have helped a lot of people. And I've been a jerk, albeit not an alpha. Further, what goes around comes around, and "jerks" and "alpha males" have helped me out in the past and will again. I just found the irony of the situation amusing.


Don't take it to heart. We can't see the actual him, we only see the word picture you've drawn. Our reactions show that it's not a very flattering word picture, but then it's not intended to be balanced, but truncated to serve a particular functional purpose.

I don't think I can help with the macro thing: I'm not aware of anything that I'm not aware of, but then I wouldn't be, would I?

One thing I will add is that you might want to reexamine your assumption that he knows you've been waiting for two years. I wouldn't interpret it that way: I'd move a woman who lives ten miles from me, communicates electronically (phone/internet) with me, but doesn't physically see me, from the "romance" to the "friend" category after a couple of months, max, not years. I absolutely wouldn't get that a woman behaving like you was still romantically interested. I'd think that not seeing me for two years was a clear "stay away, no longer interested" signal. He obviously doesn't see it precisely that way, and I don't know what you've said to him over that time that he might use as clues. Maybe he does realise that you're waiting on him. But I think you should double- and triple-check that assumption, and in any case you're not getting younger and explicit communication is a good thing, especially with Aspies.