murder, suicide and hell

Post Reply New Topic

if a psychotic, frustrated and confused person kills someone, you dont think thats a good reason for that person to go to hell?

if a depressed, miserable and hopeless person commits suicide, you dont think thats a good reason for him to go to hell?

do you agree with me?

theres a difference between an evil serial killer who think its fun to kill person after person, and one who didnt mean it.

i was on the verge of killing someone in the past, but it was due to me being psychotic, frustrated and confused.

if jeffrey dahmer is in heaven and mahatma gandhi is in hell, i don't think i need to put up with any nonsense about who deserves to go to either.

books claiming either place exists belong in the "fiction" section.

According to the Bible, being confused, psychotic, and/or a murderer/suicide "victim" does not make someone worthy of hell.

The Bible informs us that all who are saved will escape any danger of hell, regardless of the circumstances.

So if that doesn't "send" you to hell, then what is the more important issue? The condition of the soul of one who commits murder or suicide, or who is psychotic/confused.

The Bible tells us IN GENERAL those who really are believers and destined for heaven will act a certain way in keeping with the nature and character of Jesus. IN GENERAL this means that we value life enough that we would not ORDINARILY murder or commit suicide. That means that those who act contrary to scripture, engaging in any kind of immoral behavior including murder and suicide are most likely NOT actually believers, even if they claim to be. In other words, if they are believers, why would they act that way?

Mental illness, on the other hand, is a physical problem, NOT a spiritual problem. People in Jesus' day recognized and understood the differences between a person's actions because they a) were possessed by demons, or b) were mentally ill or high (drunk). Willful murderers and violent people in general either do not understand Christian conduct or reject it altogether. Yet they are of perfectly sound mind. Someone suffering from insanity is incapable of understanding or controlling what it is he does or thinks. A paranoid schizophrenic may only have a loose hold on reality. They cannot be rightfully held responsibility for what they do if their actions result from a lack of control of their own minds. Even bipolar disorder is known to have its causes in chemical imbalances in the brain, and beyond taking medication to regulate brain functions, there really isn't much a person can do about it beyond recognizing the symptoms for what they are.

Therefore, if a person is a victim of circumstances beyond his control, he cannot be spiritually penalized for it, even with suicide.

A person who is in a sinful condition, lacking faith, is already condemned to hell, so suicide/murder is irrelevant regardless of whether the person is of sound mind or not.

Someone who DOES believe, though, most likely would not want to act in such a way to take his own life or do harm to others. A believer who doesn't "act himself" due to dementia or other neurological problems can still fall victim to those things which make us human--violent behavior, confusion, etc. But such a person is already saved if they have accepted the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus. If God chooses not to heal that person or provide some remedy, then it's POSSIBLE for that person to kill others or himself without fear of eternal consequences. I just would not imagine that this is something that is very commonplace. If you are a believer BUT you are aware that you have violent predispositions, I suppose you'd rather make every possible effort to avoid bad situations. My father was violent and verbally/mentally abusive, and I believe I genetically inherited some of those tendencies from him. I have learned, however, to control my temper and be more patient. I also know that I struggle to be understood by others, so I've learned to carefully pick people to be on my team when I need to get things done. Working out things/projects, and so forth ALONE is usually my best course for avoiding problems that come with leading other people. So if someone KNOWS they have social problems or mental problems, the best thing a believer can do is either avoid triggers or find ways to work through them. When I work with small children, I know I tend to be LOUD and raise my voice when I get excited over something (whether good or bad!). So I have to remind myself who I'm working with and that I CAN be a scary person. The easier I am with kids, the more relaxed I can be, the less likely that I'll do something I shouldn't. And the more I read the Bible the less I want to be that kind of person (like my father). People who don't care about themselves or others very likely do not believe, but a person who is mentally unstable for reasons beyond their control are hardly to blame for their own actions. And I think other Christians should be kind and supportive of those who have such problems, especially if they are also fellow Christians, such that they are prevented from doing horrible things in a state of confusion.

ivegotyou? More like pgdparttwo.

outer darkness doesn't care why you're there. the condition of one's spirit is what bring one to such a place, and is what keeps one there for whatever duration.

Not the Bible. Rather, the Gospels.

All the Bible promises is that people who keep the Commandments will have good crops and their wives will have lots of children.

ruveyn

i was just too much of a coward/p**** D to do it, my body just "prevented" me from doing it.

you have only your life to live. this is hard enough. try to let others live theirs.

and if you're seriously considering killing someone/yourself, it might be time to tap out and seek help.

Well, if you want to get "technical" about it, then THAT'S not even true, or if it IS true then God's got a spotty record on delivering promises. Not everyone who kept the Commandments had good crops or had lots of children, at least not all the time. Consider that following the Proverbs promises wealth--ok, so I read and do my best to do what the proverbs tell me to do, and I ended up losing a good job and subsequently my house and gaining a whole bunch of debt I couldn't pay. Looks to me like living wisely leads to slavery, not freedom. So you turn right over to Ecclesiastes and learn that keeping the Proverbs is pointless because you can lose everything as quickly as you can gain it.

So much for the goodness of God.

And no, I'm not bitter towards God because of my circumstances--I'm only exaggerating (those things DID happen to me, but there's no use in being angry about it). I'm just saying that your statement "All the Bible promises..." is inconsistent. Those who kept the commandments did so not for worldly desires, but rather for a desire to act in accordance with God's will. Solomon didn't ask for great wealth--he already had it. He asked wisdom from God so he'd have the good sense to know what to do with all that wealth and all those people. And because what he asked for was greater than any earthly possession or concentration of power, God gave him more of all that stuff anyway. Solomon's teachings show us the balance between wisdom and foolishness as well as the emptiness of worldly things.

So if God is good, and I believe He is, then our reward is not in the keeping of commandments but rather in attaining an eternal reward beyond the temporary blessings of this world. If we love God, we will keep the commandments whether we have been taught the commandments or not. God will bless us materially if He wants to, and the richest reward is contentment with God's control of our lives and our ultimate destiny.

Of course, ruveyn, you know that the Bible's mention of Sheol or Hades is sparing, and I'm aware that you do not believe that hell exists. So whether the eternal consequences of suicide or murder damns one to hell is, I'm assuming, not something you'd be concerned with. Your Bible is concerned with the inherent value of human life ("made in God's image"), in which case murder and suicide are by nature sin (destruction of life/God's image). Suicide/murder and hell are more concerns of Christianity, though, under the new covenant. So the idea that suicide is unforgivable and damning to eternal separation from God HAS to be false and (I'm assuming) a myth perpetuated by the Catholic church shared with some Protestant denominations. I was even taught as a child that you go to hell if you kill yourself. However, that's not what the Bible teaches. It is the grace of God that rescues and we who decide whether to accept God's gift of salvation through Christ or not.

However, it remains that if our hope is placed in God and Christ, then one need not feel hopeless and abandoned despite any unfortunate circumstances. I would think that people who feel hopeless and alone do not know God, in which case they have not accepted the gift of salvation from sin and therefore condemn themselves to an eternal destiny apart from God (which we call "hell"). Now, it is ALSO possible to know God and slip in our faith, for which I do not believe God holds us accountable in terms of eternal reward or punishment. The question is "Would this person have 'come back' to God had he lived?" I think only God knows the answer, so I prefer not to "send" someone who is a suicide victim to hell. Someone who is suffering from a physical mental condition also cannot help what they feel or do and are thus in need of help from believers who can maybe get them to a pastor/spiritual counselor, a psychologist/psychiatrist, or even an emergency room/hospital.

AngelRho, you are 100% right on this matter.