Is it psychologically possible to have both Autism and NPD?

Post Reply New Topic

Hi, there. I've been wondering about something. Not that I have Narcissistic Personality Disorder (or anything of the sort), but is it psychologically possible for a person to have any form of Autism and have Narcissistic Personality Disorder at the same time?

As you know, people with Autism tend to be too honest at times (not all the time, though), while Narcissists spend almost all their lives being manipulative and dishonest. Hence, my question.

I say yes, but only if the criteria are fully met. You'd need to have a clinician diagnose the personality disorder. What you might want to do is go to Wikipedia and look up the full criteria for NPD.

I say no, because sometimes we can tend to 'over-diagnose' ourselves.

Interestingly enough, the next DSM edition (handbook of mental health conditions) is going to drop 'personality disorders' altogether.

Here's an article you may enjoy from Psychology Today, called The End of Narcissistic Personality Disorder? Say It Isn't So!

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/do- ... it-aint-so

Of course it's possible. It's not going to be as rare as a sociopath with Aspergers (THAT would be a sight to see, a guy that blends in well and doesn't interact well) but it's certainly possible. It's still going to be rare though.

For me, and depending upon the view of the beholder, someone might even toss in a bit of psychosis ... but I say it is all just a symptom of my particular case/version of AS/HFA. Having no solid grip on seeing and understanding things as many other people seem to see and understand them, my own "honest best" can sometimes be idealism at its seeming worst.

Ok, so you guys say it's possible. Can I know how it can be possible through some illustration that you can come up with in order to describe the possibility of having both a form of autism and NPD (or even sociopathy)? It still doesn't make much sense to me that someone who has the social skills to manipulate even smart people can have autism at the same time. Doesn't having autism mean poor social skills?

Leejosepho, what does idealism have to do with honesty?

The more vulnerable or unwitting a given individual or group of people might be, the fewer "social skills" someone else would need to manipulate them.


I am not sure how to answer you there since I was not talking about either. I was only saying I happen to honestly believe certain ideals (as I perceive them) are best even though my perception of what actually *is* ideal can often appear quite skewed.

i think having impaired theory of mind can lend itself well to narcissism.

if you cannot comprehend anyone having different (or valid) thoughts and think highly of yourself .. manipulation doesn't necessarily involve good social skills. you could just paint an unrealistic portrait of yourself and pass it off as the truth because you think it's the truth.

i think it's possible, and i'm interested in this concept also because it could explain someone i know.

according to wikipedia it looks like NPD is a result of inflated self-importance and / or excessive criticism in childhood (the latter of which could easily befall someone with AS who seems never to be doing anything right, but who might not think him / herself wrong either, and might therefore take great pains to prove otherwise, especially if ignorant of having AS)

i'm not sure if i've made my point well but it makes sense to me.

You may be right about that, but how many intelligent autistic people out there are able to make vulnerable people follow their lead and do whatever they (the autistics) say or desire? I don't think pure intelligence is enough for one to become a cult leader or something. The way you carry yourself out (body language, gestures, voice tone, word usage, attitude) can have a great affect on people around you, but it all requires good natural social skills to be able to be such a charming and charismatic leader. As an autistic, this is something that I naturally struggle with (and I'm sure many others struggle with this also) ... unlike a typical person with NPD. If I (and other autistics) had naturally good social skills, we wouldn't be here discussing our autism and how several of us struggle with it, you know.

A person with NPD is (supposedly) a natural when it comes to social interactions no matter the intelligence level or character. And due to his "messed up" (for lack of a more politically correct word) personality, he can't but do what he can to manipulate people around him as he is like a vampire constantly looking for narcissistic supply wherever he is or goes. That's why he has to be quite good socially.

Well, at least, that's how I'm seeing it. If someone can show me that I'm wrong on what I just said, by all means correct me and give me a good enough explanation.



Yes, that's something that both autistics and NPD "sufferers" have issues with. But there's still a vast difference between this and that.

I think I see where you're going, but the way I see it, a lot of us (including me) have traits similar to the traits of a person with NPD, and we may be considered as narcissists by many due to some of the certain ways we act, but having narcissistic traits and having the actual NPD disorder itself are two different things. I think we should make it clear the distinction before we can safely conclude that someone you or I know has NPD or something.

I have this theory that autism not only affects the way we act socially and the way we look at this world, but it also affects our personality to the point that it could never be so distorted by traumatic childhood experiences that it becomes a personality of an extreme narcissist with NPD. I honestly believe we're immune to certain Cluster B personality disorders. Not sure if I'm making myself clear here.

I have no idea how many intelligent autistic people might be able to make vulnerable people follow their lead, but then maybe your question is only rhetorical. What I do know is this: There have been times in days past when I have taken specific action to stop people from blindly following my lead, and those people were certainly not being drawn by my lousy social skills.

It's not like I'm saying you can't influence or attract people to your standards or something. What I'm talking about is manipulating people (not just influencing them or attracting them). People influenced by you are that way because they themselves agree with your standards and find them good. So there's no social effort on your part needed.

Manipulation (i.e. the effort of controlling the way one thinks and acts even if it goes against the nature of the one being manipulated) is something that requires extreme social skills and excellent display of social strength.

Granted, autistics can learn the "art" of manipulation with time and deep study, but that's the point! They're not natural manipulators, while NPD "sufferers" are natural manipulators due to the way they've been shaped personality-wise since they were around 2 years of age.

good point. what looks like narcissism isn't necessarily.

with this idea of immunity to certain personality disorders, do you mean the personality of someone with autism is more stable than someone else - because of the lack of influence of social expectations? that sounds reasonable.

i don't know enough about personality disorders to be opining so freely about it, to be honest. i'm really just musing.

but let me add i think someone with AS could develop a problem with a sort of arrogance or narcissism rather than accepting that the neurotypical way of perceiving things (especially socially) is the status quo. Tony Attwood writes about this actually.

Yes, in a way, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

My thoughts (might be wrong):
A child with autism at the age of 2 isn't seeking the attention of his parents as much as an NT child is. So it shouldn't bother him if he has an emotionally absent father/mother as much as it would bother and disturb an NT child. That's why I think it's very difficult (if not impossible) for an autistic child to develop certain personality disorders that would be triggered by emotional childhood trauma due to an emotionally absent parent or whatever.

In fact, most of the time, it's the parent that's seeking the attention of the child in the case of an autistic child! That explains why my mother almost ended up having NPD because of me.

(nah, just kidding, she's a good woman)



I agree with you on that. In fact, I can easily be an example of such a person under various situations.

Cheers.

same, and i'm rapidly unlearning it.

i want to compare this to one's personality being unstable in a way, but i'm sure mine isn't really. i am however still unraveling my more than three decades of confusion about why interaction with people has always been so difficult, and it involves letting go of a lot of thoughts i had about myself vs. them, if that makes sense.

Which goes to show how possible it is for someone with autism to improve and become a better person for society (even if it's just slightly). NPD sufferers don't have that gift, unfortunately.



Makes perfect sense. We've been conditioned by factors in and around us to think (and often justifiably so) that we've been treated unfairly by the NTs in society who tend to demand us to conform to their "normal" social views, views that may be normal to them but that go against our nature as humans with an autistic way of thinking and character. And over the years, it gets to us and makes us become perceived as narcissistic and arrogant for insisting that, since that's the way we act socially, then NTs should accept such social behavior from us (no matter how awkward, weird, and unempathetic it may be). And our judgements start to get clouded by such narcissistic thinking.

But, at the same time, we'll always realize deep down that the most effective way to have a normal social interaction in this world is to do it the NT way. And that's what leads many with autism (such as yourself) to want to change accordingly yet still struggle with lots of confusion and conflicts go in the mind trying to figure what exactly led to all this.

I personally wouldn't want to change for society, though. I'm happy being a bit of a "narcissist" as it keeps me sane and in control and less vulnerable to the manipulations of the NTs.

Well, I'd say yes. My father definitely had them both.