fight for truth: fight simon baron-cohen

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antonblock
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27 Dec 2010, 4:08 pm

Dear,

i really annoys me and hurts me how much nonsense is written still about autistic people. That they have no feelings and that they are not social, just want to sit in front of their computer and so on.

And i also hate people like simon baron-cohen and his "extreme male brain" theory. I feel much more deeply than most woman, and there comes this stupid wannabe-researcher and gets famous by producing a theory according to which autistic don't feel, because they are so extremely male.

This is not only nonsense, this tells other people lies about what and how we are, and there people again hurt us. I don't want this! Why don't any autistic people meet together and try to effectively complain about this nonsense and fight for a better world for them?

bye,
anton



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27 Dec 2010, 4:23 pm

Can you link us to an article where Baron-Cohen says this about us "not feeling" things? I've heard the extreme-male-brain idea, and don't agree with it; but I've never thought that it was actually malicious or anything, just an incorrect guess about why we're autistic.


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27 Dec 2010, 4:26 pm

It is malicious in the same way that all sexist b#%^t is malicious - it harms the lives of many women.



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27 Dec 2010, 4:42 pm

i actually believe in the extreme male brain theory, when i see NT men and women i can see that i'm much more like the men than the women, and so are pretty much all aspie women i know, even those with a very girly apperence. I have a male brain and i don't mind, but everybody else does for some reason.
But that aspies have no sympati for others and that we have no feelings, that's bullcrap. We're not robots.


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antonblock
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27 Dec 2010, 4:45 pm

Callista wrote:
Can you link us to an article where Baron-Cohen says this about us "not feeling" things? I've heard the extreme-male-brain idea, and don't agree with it; but I've never thought that it was actually malicious or anything, just an incorrect guess about why we're autistic.


read the description at

look on Wikipedia on "Extreme_male_brain"

there you can find for example:

"Baron-Cohen developed the E-S model in the context of his research into autism. Baron-Cohen argues that about two-thirds of people with autism or Asperger syndrome have an extreme S-type brain, with intact or strong systemizing alongside below-average empathy."

below-average empathy, .... yet again, i hate to hear it!!

let's do something against this crap!



wavefreak58
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27 Dec 2010, 4:48 pm

antonblock wrote:
Callista wrote:
Can you link us to an article where Baron-Cohen says this about us "not feeling" things? I've heard the extreme-male-brain idea, and don't agree with it; but I've never thought that it was actually malicious or anything, just an incorrect guess about why we're autistic.


read the description at

look on Wikipedia on "Extreme_male_brain"

there you can find for example:

"Baron-Cohen developed the E-S model in the context of his research into autism. Baron-Cohen argues that about two-thirds of people with autism or Asperger syndrome have an extreme S-type brain, with intact or strong systemizing alongside below-average empathy."

below-average empathy, .... yet again, i hate to hear it!!

let's do something against this crap!


Calling it crap doesn't make it so. Can you provide anything concrete that shows the theory to be invalid? What competing theories of autism provide a better model?


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27 Dec 2010, 4:49 pm

Quit giving him publicity. Just put forth your alternative model. Hatred and anger will hurt you. Putting forth your competing theory will be more helpful.


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27 Dec 2010, 4:52 pm

He describes "empathy" this way and doesn't limit it to a simple matter of not caring about people.
Britannica: How might empathy difficulties manifest in social situations?

Baron-Cohen: Empathy difficulties are a parsimonious way of explaining a huge range of atypical behavior, and these include talking too loudly, standing too closely, dominating in a conversation, being disinterested in other viewpoints, trying to control others, not understanding others’ intentions or motives or body language, saying inappropriate things (faux pas), being unaware of how others see you or think about you, being disinterested in conformity, not attending to others’ faces, or not responding to hints.

From an interview here:
http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2010/12 ... ron-cohen/



antonblock
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27 Dec 2010, 4:54 pm

DandelionFireworks wrote:
Quit giving him publicity. Just put forth your alternative model. Hatred and anger will hurt you. Putting forth your competing theory will be more helpful.


Publicity to simon baron-cohen? yeah maybe you are right, its all they want!

Interesting question: What are the the best theories so far?

the best thing i came along was the book by olga bogdashina, she clearly describes how the sensitivity differences lead to a different social behavior, in order to reduce overload.

bye,
anton



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27 Dec 2010, 5:04 pm

Baron-Cohen's studies suggest an extreme male brain in terms of empathizing and systemizing. These are not the only characteristics that are associated with male vs female brains. The post below show the results of some Asperger males that have a low empathizing score and high systemizing score, but with other male/female brain characteristics added into a more comprehensive test many of the males score somewhere in the middle of the female-male continuum.

His studies suggest a higher correlation of fetal testosterone exposure and lower digit ratio among people lower on the autism spectrum. There is a higher correlation of lower digit ratio among females that have Aspergers than the correlation of lower digit ratio among males that have Aspergers.

He is actually a proponent of those that view the condition of Aspergers as a condtion that can lead to talent.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt122533.html



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27 Dec 2010, 5:17 pm

Although I may not agree with Baron-Cohen's theory, I think that there is really nothing harmful in it; it is probably just misleading to give a feminine label to empathizing and a masculine one to systemizing. However, more importantly, I believe that there is really nothing wrong with having little empathy. It does not make us cold, evil people.

People on the spectrum more than compensate for lack of empathy by possessing intellectual understanding and compassion. Many of us cannot feel what others feel, but I do supportive counseling at work and I can fully unstand what others are going through and I hate to see others hurt. Sometimes, because we don't let our feelings get in the way, we can be a great asset in the field of health care and human services as well as a great friend who passionately defends those who are weaker.


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27 Dec 2010, 5:22 pm

I don't think it's publicity he wants... He's a researcher, not a quack. Perhaps he's wrong, but the nature of science is to prove itself wrong time and time again. At least it's not Bettleheim :evil: I am not offended by having what he considers a "male brain," because it kind of describes the way I think. I'm much less empathic than the average guy. As for feeling for others? I don't know.
Olga's theory looks interesting. I only briefly looked at it.
Another theory is "Theory of Self." iautistic the author might not be a scholar, but it's interesting.



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27 Dec 2010, 5:24 pm

I suspect a lot of people confuse empathy with compassion, and read a lack of empathy (as defined upthread) as also meaning a lack of compassion - and this misconception is rampant among NTs.

As for extreme male brain, I suspect that given that the autistic spectrum covers a range of traits that only some of these are stereotypically masculine (and identified as such by SBC) but that perhaps others may be stereotypically feminine, but not weighted as strongly or at all in SBC's theory. Of course, that's just a guess because I haven't really looked that closely beyond trying to figure out which applies or does not apply to me.



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27 Dec 2010, 5:49 pm

Quote:
I suspect a lot of people confuse empathy with compassion, and read a lack of empathy (as defined upthread) as also meaning a lack of compassion - and this misconception is rampant among NTs.


This what I was saying. Aspergians tend to have a level of compassion far above that of NTs, who, as we have often seen. tend to step right over injured or sick people lying in the street.


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27 Dec 2010, 5:51 pm

The extreme male brain theory has holes in it a mile wide. You don't need to come up with a new theory to tell if an older one is false. Simon Baron-Cohen's research contains a lot of things that are either directly force-fitted to conform to his theories, or else actually written in ways that help him get the results he wants, whether consciously or unconsciously. I've never had much respect for his research because of that, and there are plenty of actual researchers who agree with me on that. There are very low standards in autism research and it doesn't take much to get famous from a theory.


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