Impossible to tell when Jesus is telling the truth vs fibs?

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pgd
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25 Jan 2011, 9:26 am

Is it impossible to tell when Jesus Christ is telling the truth vs fibbing?

Example: Very bizarre words from the mouth of public speaker and non-profit religious minister, Rabbi Jesus Christ (born in Bethlehem, Israel - died in Jerusalem, Israel):

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke: 14:26 - KJV) Should Jesus Christ be viewed as a hate monger? Does Jesus's exhortation for husbands to hate their wives and children prove that Jesus did not have the oars in the water and that Jesus Christ cannot possibly be the Messiah/God because Jesus was clearly a lunatic?

In my view (2011), it is impossible to tell the difference between Jesus Christ as telling the truth and fibbing (using metaphors, similies, and even lying) in the New Testament of the Bible. Interpretations of what Jesus Christ say here and there in the New Testament can vary a lot as to what Jesus Christ meant literally and what was meant as exhaggeration/veiled poetry or rhetorical hot air so to speak.

---

Web definitions for bizarre

conspicuously or grossly unconventional or unusual; "restaurants of bizarre design--one like a hat, another like a rabbit"; "famed for his ...

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Last edited by pgd on 25 Jan 2011, 9:38 am, edited 3 times in total.

Philologos
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25 Jan 2011, 9:30 am

Ooops - this wording sees to have been replicated. It happens. For comment see your divorce entry.



AngelRho
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25 Jan 2011, 4:54 pm

pgd wrote:
Is it impossible to tell when Jesus Christ is telling the truth vs fibbing?

Why wouldn't Jesus tell the truth?

pgd wrote:
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke: 14:26 - KJV) Should Jesus Christ be viewed as a hate monger?

Do you understand the context of that passage? Is it fair to take anything anyone said out of context?

pgd wrote:
Interpretations of what Jesus Christ say here and there in the New Testament can vary a lot as to what Jesus Christ meant literally and what was meant as exhaggeration

That depends. Are the interpretations that vary really accurate interpretations? Are you familiar with ancient figures of speech and the use of hyperboles as part of speech? It's not bizarre to speak plainly in language people would understand. People still exaggerate to make points. If you understand that something was meant to be hyperbole, what other interpretation is there?



MCalavera
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26 Jan 2011, 1:16 am

pgd wrote:
Is it impossible to tell when Jesus Christ is telling the truth vs fibbing?

Example: Very bizarre words from the mouth of public speaker and non-profit religious minister, Rabbi Jesus Christ (born in Bethlehem, Israel - died in Jerusalem, Israel):

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke: 14:26 - KJV) Should Jesus Christ be viewed as a hate monger? Does Jesus's exhortation for husbands to hate their wives and children prove that Jesus did not have the oars in the water and that Jesus Christ cannot possibly be the Messiah/God because Jesus was clearly a lunatic?

In my view (2011), it is impossible to tell the difference between Jesus Christ as telling the truth and fibbing (using metaphors, similies, and even lying) in the New Testament of the Bible.
Interpretations of what Jesus Christ say here and there in the New Testament can vary a lot as to what Jesus Christ meant literally and what was meant as exhaggeration/veiled poetry or rhetorical hot air so to speak.

---

Web definitions for bizarre

conspicuously or grossly unconventional or unusual; "restaurants of bizarre design--one like a hat, another like a rabbit"; "famed for his ...

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn - Definition in context (Google)


Unfortunately, Jesus has long been dead. There's no way we can get clarifications from Him concerning some of the things He said.

But either way, He obviously had psychological issues ... or He wouldn't say such crap about loving Him more than one's family members. Sounds exactly like NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder).



Natty_Boh
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26 Jan 2011, 2:18 am

MCalavera wrote:
pgd wrote:
Is it impossible to tell when Jesus Christ is telling the truth vs fibbing?

Example: Very bizarre words from the mouth of public speaker and non-profit religious minister, Rabbi Jesus Christ (born in Bethlehem, Israel - died in Jerusalem, Israel):

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke: 14:26 - KJV) Should Jesus Christ be viewed as a hate monger? Does Jesus's exhortation for husbands to hate their wives and children prove that Jesus did not have the oars in the water and that Jesus Christ cannot possibly be the Messiah/God because Jesus was clearly a lunatic?

In my view (2011), it is impossible to tell the difference between Jesus Christ as telling the truth and fibbing (using metaphors, similies, and even lying) in the New Testament of the Bible.
Interpretations of what Jesus Christ say here and there in the New Testament can vary a lot as to what Jesus Christ meant literally and what was meant as exhaggeration/veiled poetry or rhetorical hot air so to speak.

---

Web definitions for bizarre

conspicuously or grossly unconventional or unusual; "restaurants of bizarre design--one like a hat, another like a rabbit"; "famed for his ...

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn - Definition in context (Google)


Unfortunately, Jesus has long been dead. There's no way we can get clarifications from Him concerning some of the things He said.

But either way, He obviously had psychological issues ... or He wouldn't say such crap about loving Him more than one's family members. Sounds exactly like NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder).


Yes, that would be one version of the "lunatic" option. But Christ never asked anything of us that He didn't do Himself. Is that indicative of NPD?



MCalavera
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26 Jan 2011, 3:12 am

Natty_Boh wrote:
Yes, that would be one version of the "lunatic" option. But Christ never asked anything of us that He didn't do Himself. Is that indicative of NPD?


People with NPD are not to be underestimated. They will do anything (even wash your feet) for good impressions. The key is in looking at Jesus as a whole - a person who said good things and made some good deeds but who also had issues with Himself and with others. For example, rebuking Peter in such a harsh way for wanting to protect Him from death was just one sign (among many) that something wasn't right with Him psychologically. Just imagine saying "Get away from me, Satan" to a person who looks up to you and admires you as a person and who was only saying something out of love and respect for you.

Hm, I've noticed I still capitalize the first letter of the pronouns referring to God/Jesus. That's one thing I haven't let go of since I left the faith. Better start treating Yahweh/Jesus as any normal sentient being.



AngelRho
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26 Jan 2011, 9:00 am

MCalavera wrote:
People with NPD are not to be underestimated. They will do anything (even wash your feet) for good impressions. The key is in looking at Jesus as a whole - a person who said good things and made some good deeds but who also had issues with Himself and with others. For example, rebuking Peter in such a harsh way for wanting to protect Him from death was just one sign (among many) that something wasn't right with Him psychologically. Just imagine saying "Get away from me, Satan" to a person who looks up to you and admires you as a person and who was only saying something out of love and respect for you.


The NPD diagnosis is a bit of a stretch, though. Have you considered this from Wikipedia?

Quote:
The Personality and Personality Work Group has proposed[25] eliminating NPD as a distinct disorder in DSM-5[26] as part of a major revamping of the diagnostic criteria for personality disorders, replacing a categorical with a dimensional approach based on the severity of dysfunctional personality trait domains, raising objections from some clinicians who characterize the new diagnostic system as an "unwieldy conglomeration of disparate models that cannot happily coexist" and may have limited usefulness in clinical practice.[27]


I doubt that NPD is really going anywhere, but it is interesting that with so many co-morbidities that its identity as a unique "illness" has been called into question.

Further, a diagnosis of NPD in God/Jesus is unnecessary. First of all, you have to show that God meets at least 5 of the NPD diagnostic criteria. Given Biblical context and possible alternative reasons or explanations of behavior, I don't see how this is likely. What I see as more likely is a generally biased opinion against God in the first place. A good psychologist would avoid such bias.

Second, in order for NPD diagnostic criteria to even be relevant, you have to establish that God has a personality disorder to begin with. Simply exhibiting some signs that may appear to some as narcissistic is not enough for a diagnosis. If that were true, I could examine some of your WP posts for evidence that you have NPD yourself. Heck, you can also diagnose pretty much everyone with NPD since most of us tend to show at least 5 of the required diagnosis criteria at some point or another, if not all of them.



MCalavera
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27 Jan 2011, 4:14 am

AngelRho wrote:
The NPD diagnosis is a bit of a stretch, though. Have you considered this from Wikipedia?

Quote:
The Personality and Personality Work Group has proposed[25] eliminating NPD as a distinct disorder in DSM-5[26] as part of a major revamping of the diagnostic criteria for personality disorders, replacing a categorical with a dimensional approach based on the severity of dysfunctional personality trait domains, raising objections from some clinicians who characterize the new diagnostic system as an "unwieldy conglomeration of disparate models that cannot happily coexist" and may have limited usefulness in clinical practice.[27]


I doubt that NPD is really going anywhere, but it is interesting that with so many co-morbidities that its identity as a unique "illness" has been called into question.


Labels are not the point. Maybe Jesus didn't purely have NPD, but it's obvious that Jesus (as depicted in the Bible) had a narcissistic personality disorder (what's it called exactly, I don't know). It could be NPD, BPD (Borderline ...), I don't know. To me, Cluster B personality disorders are generally the same psychological disorder but with different manifestations.

Quote:
Further, a diagnosis of NPD in God/Jesus is unnecessary. First of all, you have to show that God meets at least 5 of the NPD diagnostic criteria. Given Biblical context and possible alternative reasons or explanations of behavior, I don't see how this is likely. What I see as more likely is a generally biased opinion against God in the first place. A good psychologist would avoid such bias.


Jesus is/was NOT God. Yet, he had this grandeur delusion that he was. That's one.

Jesus was full of fantasies of power and might and authority as he kept saying how he would eventually receive power and authority from God (whom he referred to as his Father denoting a very privileged relation). That's two.

Jesus believed that he was special. After all, he did say that he was the way, the truth, and the life ... and that no one can go to the Father except through him. That's three.

Jesus loved attention and admiration. He loved it when a woman came to him and poured expensive ointment on his feet. That's four.

Jesus lacked empathy. That's why he had no problem saying some of the things he said ... like when he rebuked Peter and when he said that no one is fit to be his disciple if he/she doesn't love him more than his/her family members (parents, children, spouses, siblings, etc.). That's five.

Let's stop there.

Quote:
Second, in order for NPD diagnostic criteria to even be relevant, you have to establish that God has a personality disorder to begin with. Simply exhibiting some signs that may appear to some as narcissistic is not enough for a diagnosis. If that were true, I could examine some of your WP posts for evidence that you have NPD yourself. Heck, you can also diagnose pretty much everyone with NPD since most of us tend to show at least 5 of the required diagnosis criteria at some point or another, if not all of them.


Then you must be doing something wrong with your diagnoses. I can't tell so far if any member here has NPD (not even you).



AngelRho
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27 Jan 2011, 8:59 am

MCalavera wrote:
Labels are not the point. Maybe Jesus didn't purely have NPD, but it's obvious that Jesus (as depicted in the Bible) had a narcissistic personality disorder (what's it called exactly, I don't know). It could be NPD, BPD (Borderline ...), I don't know. To me, Cluster B personality disorders are generally the same psychological disorder but with different manifestations.

So you don't know for sure, only speculation. Sounds like bias to me.

MCalavera wrote:
Jesus is/was NOT God. Yet, he had this grandeur delusion that he was. That's one.

Jesus was able to perform miracles, to heal the sick, raise the dead, and even bring Himself back from the dead. Yet He constantly reminded His followers that His powers came from God. He also said "I and My Father are One..." His works convinced even some of the toughest of skeptics of His day. John said, "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God." "Word" here refers to Jesus, confirmed when John writes "the Word was made flesh..." Jesus clearly IS God, no delusions needed.

MCalavera wrote:
Jesus was full of fantasies of power and might and authority as he kept saying how he would eventually receive power and authority from God (whom he referred to as his Father denoting a very privileged relation). That's two.

Jesus demonstrated His power. Even demons recognized His authority. Being the Son of God IS a very privileged relation. Not only that, but Jesus made it possible that we all can become children of God, effectively making Jesus not JUST our Lord and Savior, but also our brother. We all have access to this "privileged relation" if we so choose and accept it. No fantasies here.

MCalavera wrote:
Jesus believed that he was special. After all, he did say that he was the way, the truth, and the life ... and that no one can go to the Father except through him. That's three.

Jesus demonstrated God's power through Him by performing miracles. He impressed the religious leaders of the day with His profound and unprecedented knowledge of the Law. Even when false witnesses were called to lie about His teachings, they couldn't even get a believable story straight to satisfy the Law's burden of proof. The strict religious teachings of the time were very difficult for many to follow if they weren't among the scholarly and religious elite. Jesus taught "My yoke is easy, my burden is light." Clearly Jesus IS special.

MCalavera wrote:
Jesus loved attention and admiration. He loved it when a woman came to him and poured expensive ointment on his feet. That's four.

God is worthy of our attention and admiration. Jesus didn't demand or even ask that the woman serve Him the way she did. She did so because SHE wanted to. Besides, merely loving attention and admiration itself is not necessarily a narcissistic trait. I'm sure most of us at one point or another crave some kind of attention and admiration. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be acknowledged by our fellow human beings. We OUGHT to care for each other, celebrate each other's victories, and correct each other when we make serious mistakes. That's just basic kindness and compassion. So this part of the criteria fails.

MCalavera wrote:
Jesus lacked empathy. That's why he had no problem saying some of the things he said ... like when he rebuked Peter and when he said that no one is fit to be his disciple if he/she doesn't love him more than his/her family members (parents, children, spouses, siblings, etc.). That's five.

And yet He healed the sick and restored the disabled. Jesus wept at the death of Lazarus, clearly showing He sympathizes with human grief. Having lived in the flesh, He understands the human condition. He taught that sin through the Law is inescapable and provided a way in which the memory of our sins is erased, thus canceling the need for impossibly strict adherence to the Law. Clearly He does empathize with us and our condition.

MCalavera wrote:
Let's stop there.

I've shown how those are explainable as something other than NPD criteria. And even if those things were TRUE, you still haven't established that Jesus really did have a personality disorder to begin with.

MCalavera wrote:
Then you must be doing something wrong with your diagnoses. I can't tell so far if any member here has NPD (not even you).


I'm going by the DSM criteria. It says you have to establish first that the client has a personality disorder. You can't demonstrate that Jesus had a personality disorder from the outset. All you can do is inject your own personal bias against Jesus by a crack diagnosis of something with which you have a deep personal interest.



MCalavera
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27 Jan 2011, 5:46 pm

AngelRho wrote:
So you don't know for sure, only speculation. Sounds like bias to me.


If I were biased, I wouldn't have admitted to speculating. ;)

By the way, I'm VERY sure that Jesus had a Cluster B personality disorder. I'm just not qualified to know which one exactly.

Quote:
Jesus clearly IS God, no delusions needed.


Clearly? No delusions?

A person with NPD would love to have you as his source of narcissistic supply.

I'm stopping here. I'm not arguing with an enabler here. Sorry.



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27 Jan 2011, 5:58 pm

I imagine that when Jesus lived, others perceived him as being so intimidating that they scarcely speculated whether he was lying or not.


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27 Jan 2011, 6:30 pm

Helixstein wrote:
I imagine that when Jesus lived, others perceived him as being so intimidating that they scarcely speculated whether he was lying or not.


A lot of Jews back then were aware he was full of nonsense. The Pharisees were even quite patient with him in the beginning despite his narcissistic rages. It was probably only later on that they plotted to have him punished by the law.



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27 Jan 2011, 7:08 pm

MCalavera wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
So you don't know for sure, only speculation. Sounds like bias to me.


If I were biased, I wouldn't have admitted to speculating. ;)

By the way, I'm VERY sure that Jesus had a Cluster B personality disorder. I'm just not qualified to know which one exactly.

Quote:
Jesus clearly IS God, no delusions needed.


Clearly? No delusions?

A person with NPD would love to have you as his source of narcissistic supply.

I'm stopping here. I'm not arguing with an enabler here. Sorry.


Enabling? Look, all I did was refute your crack diagnosis by checking the facts against the criteria. That's not enabling. That's being objective.

And even for the sake of argument if Jesus DID fit the criteria, you refused to definitively show the required existing personality disorder which is prerequisite for a diagnosis of NPD.



Last edited by AngelRho on 27 Jan 2011, 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pgd
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27 Jan 2011, 7:08 pm

MCalavera wrote:
pgd wrote:
Is it impossible to tell when Jesus Christ is telling the truth vs fibbing?

Example: Very bizarre words from the mouth of public speaker and non-profit religious minister, Rabbi Jesus Christ (born in Bethlehem, Israel - died in Jerusalem, Israel):

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke: 14:26 - KJV) Should Jesus Christ be viewed as a hate monger? Does Jesus's exhortation for husbands to hate their wives and children prove that Jesus did not have the oars in the water and that Jesus Christ cannot possibly be the Messiah/God because Jesus was clearly a lunatic?

In my view (2011), it is impossible to tell the difference between Jesus Christ as telling the truth and fibbing (using metaphors, similies, and even lying) in the New Testament of the Bible.
Interpretations of what Jesus Christ say here and there in the New Testament can vary a lot as to what Jesus Christ meant literally and what was meant as exhaggeration/veiled poetry or rhetorical hot air so to speak.

---

Web definitions for bizarre

conspicuously or grossly unconventional or unusual; "restaurants of bizarre design--one like a hat, another like a rabbit"; "famed for his ...

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn - Definition in context (Google)


Unfortunately, Jesus has long been dead. There's no way we can get clarifications from Him concerning some of the things He said.

But either way, He obviously had psychological issues ... or He wouldn't say such crap about loving Him more than one's family members. Sounds exactly like NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder).


---

Well, it is clear that Jesus's voice was never tape recorded and Jesus's image was never photographed or captured on color movie film. Yes, it does appear Jesus could have chosen his words a little more carefully vs what he is reported to have said about wives and children which is awful (my view).



AngelRho
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27 Jan 2011, 7:12 pm

pgd wrote:
Well, it is clear that Jesus's voice was never tape recorded and Jesus's image was never photographed or captured on color movie film. Yes, it does appear Jesus could have chosen his words a little more carefully vs what he is reported to have said about wives and children which is awful (my view).

All we have is Scriptural evidence. We will have to let that suffice for tape recordings and film. What is it about what Jesus said about wives and children that you think is so awful?