To the Christians who don't take the Bible literally:

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Now you're just going way too philosophical here.

We're all human beings here with various things in common. I understand the slight differences in perception but I also understand that, for most of us (other than the schizophrenics and the likes [with all respect to them]), we do see things commonly and perceive things commonly, but it all boils down to whether or not we choose to be consistent with what we perceive.

You may see a blue car as blue while someone who's color-blind may see a different color (that's just an example), but I can make the assumption that both of you see the car as a car and therefore if one of you argues that it's not a car, it would still be valid to try to convince that person that what he's seeing is actually a car.

Hopefully, you get my point.

EDIT: Of course, you most likely won't see someone out there denying a car as a car, but as soon as you give him some religious reason to deny it as a car, it becomes exactly like how someone claims he takes a passage literally but rejects the literal interpretation of it.

Have you read Crucible of Terror: A Story of Survival Through the Nazi Storm by Max Liebster? Or Facing the Lion: Memoirs of a Young Girl in Nazi Europe by Max's wife, Simone Arnold Liebster?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m9QnVYU08U[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8Q5LJ_cg[/youtube]

Last edited by kxmode on 19 Feb 2011, 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

2 Peter 1:20-21 is the crux of the arguement?

oy I see a valid arguement for the liberals Xtians

Knowing this first, that [the scope of] no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation.

for prophecy was not ever uttered by [the] will of man, but holy men of God spake under the power of [the] Holy Spirit

I am afraid Paul may be talking only about The Prophetic sections of the Nevi'im.
you would think as a Pharisee he would regard Torah as a higher Authority.
but then again he was a member of a apocolyptic cult and the rambly vaugue bits might has suited him better.
I guess Paul thought you should not run about freely interperating Y'shayahu but you could have any view you wanted about the narrative parts like creation, the ark and Jona and the whale cuz they are in the story party.
this actually parallels Josephuses view in Antiquities of the Jews.
He says the 7 day creation was real but eden was not but I may be mistaken.
The book is boring and Joe is a traitor but he is a near contempory of Paul.

the I hope I am not misreading you.

as for the question how do Liberal Christians interperate the verse. I ran it by a Quaker friend of mine
(or a Friend of a friend get it thats funny cuz Quakers are called friends)
and he said and I quote

but I guess that what one should expect from a Harvard Divinity school guy.

moral of the story theists are slippery bastards resitant to logic.

First of all, it's [allegedly] Peter (not Paul).

Secondly, in the Epistles, you see the Torah quoted for Messianic prophecies. So no, he's not referring only to the Prophets section of the Old Testament.

Thirdly, if you check the full immediate context, his whole point was to let the target audience see that the Scriptures shouldn't be seen as a bunch of cleverly devised stories but as books of actual events not to be interpreted by human will but to be accepted as true revelations from God himself.

And therefore what they've been taught about the Gospel is true because it's based on what God himself says through the Scriptures.

Wider immediate context here:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV



That's fine. This thread is not applied to such believers.

good call on the Peter wrote it thing I seriously doubt that he did. I

The epistles are full of prophets quotes.
Isaiah is not in the Torah
the psalms are not in the Torah.
Which verses of Torah are used as Prophecy?
אתה גוי בורים



this should read the verses are read by your former christian community that way.



looks to me that he is placing his eyewitness at a higher level then the "cleverly devised stories" perhaps the narative part of the Torah. I think our "Peter" may be a liberal Christian and that he values the Prophets over the Law.

-Jake

[quote="JakobVirgil"]
The epistles are full of prophets quotes.
Isaiah is not in the Torah
the psalms are not in the Torah.
Which verses of Torah are used as Prophecy?
אתה גוי בורים

/quote]

Moshe's farewell speech to his people, before he went up the mountain to die, was almost all prophecy.

ruveyn

I should have said used as Prophecy of Jesus.

Prophecies of the Gospel, you mean. Jesus and the Gospel are inter-related.

I can think of the reference to Melchizedek in Hebrews. And God calling Abraham the father of all nations [suppsedly through the Messiah] is referenced at least once in the Pauline Epistles (I remember one in Romans).

You do realize that I have heard this information before, but I am using wikipedia because it is an easy access source generally considered valid for most online debates.


Your lack of knowledge does not constitute a source better than wikipedia.


Ok? In any case, MCalavera, I am still not sure that you have much of a point. I mean, the big issue is whether your interpretations are NECESSARY, not whether they are true. If your interpretation is not necessary, then rejecting it is valid, regardless of what ends up being true. The issue is that you can't seem to show that your interpretation is the only possible interpretation.

Ok, is this some mind game you're playing here?

You can't even admit that that list is slightly bigger than it should reasonably be, can you?

That list on Wikipedia sounds like some amateurish work that has managed to be accepted despite its flaws.

A letter from the Corinthians is NOT equal to a letter from Paul.

Common sense.

Which verses of Torah are used as Prophecy of Jesus?

You can be certain what ever the scriptures say you can be sure it was inspired by God, only part that was written by God's own hand was the ten commandments, no human being can not alter any part of the bible to suit themselves, not even the day of Sabbath rest which is Saturday God blessed Saturday he blessed and he rested on Saturday, this was appointed as a memory of creation.

Peoples read the first few verses of Genesis.

Genesis 2 2-3

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.


Now this is showing how crafty Satan can be:
Genesis 3

The Fall

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

2 Corinthians 11:14

14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light

Satan will masquerade the second coming of Jesus, to attempt to do the same crafty tricks, most Christians dont know this and as a result they sink into his tricks.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (New International Version, ©2010)

13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Revelation 15 (New International Version, ©2010)

Revelation 15

Seven Angels With Seven Plagues

1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. 2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God 3 and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:
“Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the nations.[a]
4 Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”[b]

5 After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the temple—that is, the tabernacle of the covenant law—and it was opened. 6 Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

Revelation 16 (New International Version, ©2010)

Revelation 16

The Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath

1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”
2 The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died.

4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:

“You are just in these judgments, O Holy One,
you who are and who were;
6 for they have shed the blood of your holy people and your prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”

7 And I heard the altar respond:

“Yes, Lord God Almighty,
true and just are your judgments.”

8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds,[a] fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible

I am not following my point is that most of the "Jesus Prophecies" are in the nakh part of the Tankh.
not in the Torah as our skull-headed friend says.
my hypotheisis is that 1st century Christsians and possibly Jews valued the Prophets over the Torah.
-Jake

JakobVirgil:

אתה גוי בורים - ?!?

A titch naughty - and potentially risky as several incidents not uninteresting to the cultural anthropologist attest, though in this case I think thechance ofr precipitation rather low.

Not quite clear on the parsing - role of the apparently plural here? Not that I could not formulate hypotheses.

No problem with the apparent semantics.

I have been tempted into the odd foray, but with lots of lingos and a history of encoding I keep covered.

The problems is knowing what divine inspiration is.

This problem used to confront me when I was a Quaker and didn't know when to give ministry.

In order to read scripture, or stand up and give an impromptu ministry, you have to use your brain, and therefore interpret things - and so 'your own interpretation ' gets thrown into the mix. The only true insights of a spiritual nature, to me, are wordless. Quaker meetings where no-one says anything are actually the best ones. This is what attracted me to Zen Buddhism later one.

It occurred that all prophecy and scripture is redundant. You have to read it and then forget it all - get the words out of your head. I think Peter/Paul was wrong. If God exists, it can't be conveyed using human language.

Now, as an atheist-leaning agnostic - I think there is nothing spiritual there to convey. We see this 'nothing' and are mystified by it and start religions. We imagine things in the darkness. The actual 'clear' darkness is much more profound.

So, your interpretation of Peter/Paul's, is that his interpretation of other Biblical writers, is that no-one should interpret the Bible. This amounts to arguing that 'no-one should read the Bible with a view to establishing a religion around based on its passages.' This is a view to which I am not opposed.

Last edited by puddingmouse on 20 Feb 2011, 10:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

אדם בליעל איש און הולך עקשות פה׃
איך בין נעבעכדיק ער נאָר אַנויד מיר ווען ער קוועסטשאַנד מיין תורה

but seriously its hard to be nice all the time.
I think the Hebrew scripture are constantly misused, misread, Misinterperated when read as an "Old Testament"
I think we should hide all the copies from the christians.


anyway now I have repented of my quick anger and only have love for all men in my heart.

-Jake