Geert Wilders (PVV) announces Fitna sequel

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Tequila
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08 Apr 2011, 10:12 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOUeLFOrKfQ&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Bang on the money. If radical Islam wishes to infect our world with their misogyny, their hatred of gays, Jews or anyone they particularly dislike, the Western world will retaliate.

Freedom of speech is paramount, even if we disagree with it. That is the basis of freedom.

They can say they support terrorism.

There are far more of us than there are of them. Call it a supremacist argument if you like but they are far more supremacist than we are. I'm a long way past caring.

Peaceful Muslims who behave themselves are welcome here. Peaceful anybody is welcome here. The fundamentalist bigots can leave their bile in the dark ages.

We have synagogues here. We have gays. We like to drink. We like to masturbate to pictures of Cheryl Cole. We don't like rapists or those that would oppress women.

The fella in the video is bang on. :)



Tequila
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08 Apr 2011, 11:45 am

And for the pub that will be converted to a madrassa:

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/ne ... id=9168890

Cllr Dave Smith, Labour councillor for Sunnyhurst ward in Darwen wrote:
It’s a better use of the building than a very busy pub.


Now, if that's not a hostile statement I don't know what is.



Tequila
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08 Apr 2011, 12:35 pm

aspie1968 wrote:
There are 1.8 million British Muslims, of whom around 10,000 are white or African-Caribbean, 1.2 million are of South Asian origin, and 350,000 Arab or African, 150,000 Turks and Kurds.
http://www.mcb.org.uk/library/statistics.php
When people talk about Muslims, they are, almost without exception, talking about non-white people.


That's lies. There are 1.5 million Muslims in England alone.

Wikipedia claims there are:

180,000 White Muslims (11.6%)
64,000 'Mixed' Muslims (4.2%)
1.3 million Asian Muslims (73.7%)
106,000 Black Muslims (6.9%)
752 Chinese Muslims (less than 0.1%)
56,500 'Other Ethnic Group' Muslims (3.7%)

So, over 20% of the Muslim population of this country aren't Asians.



aspie1968
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08 Apr 2011, 1:25 pm

The 180,000 "white" Muslims doubtless includes the 150,000 Turks and Kurds. Others are Bosnians, Albanians and Kosovars. Anyway, I've never denied there are SOME white converts to Islam. It's just that Islamophobia is a cover for racism. The Muslims the media cover are always Asian. You, yourself, have mixed up the issue of Islam with the issue of "hosts" and "guests", hence implying that Muslims are foreign.

Lrn2read. FORMER pub, not current pub. Islamic EDUCATION CENTRE, not mosque. Madrassa for 15-20 children - this is basically a SCHOOL. "Local residents" against it number 52. That's right, 52. The Monster Raving Loony Party get more votes than that. Lancaster has a population of 46,000. "Better use than a very busy pub" in terms of the residents' concern about traffic and parking problems. A 15-20 child school IS likely to generate less traffic than a "very busy pub". Oh, and lots of pubs are closing all the time. Nobody closed the pub so as to turn it into an Islamic education centre.

Oh, and if Qur'an burning shouldn't be illegal, neither should poppy burning, flag burning or Bible burning. Poppy burning has, however, been ruled illegal, so it would be hypocritical if Qur'an burning wasn't illegal too.



Tequila
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08 Apr 2011, 5:03 pm

Let them burn poppies in public if they like. The rest of the country will turn their hatred on them if they do so. It just shows how much some elements of Islam hate and despise the culture and traditions of the country they live in.

Nothing wrong with flag-burning being legal as an idea - it's done often enough. It's stupid and futile and does nothing but stokes up hatred from the people whose flag is being burnt. See Northern Ireland for examples. But banning them? No. Better for them to burn flags than people.

Book-burning is sinister but should, again, be legal.

If I had gone to an Islamic state and burnt a symbol that is very important to them - not a religious symbol, say, but a national one - how would I be treated by the local population and the government? Extremist Muslims are abusing the essentially tolerant nature of the majority of the rest of the population by doing things they would never be able to get away with in their ancestral nations if the roles were reversed.



aspie1968
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09 Apr 2011, 7:50 am

I think one big difference is that pretty much everyone recognises that somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan is a repressive state, nobody claims they're essentially tolerant and are just being provoked by minorities. Whereas when Britain or France or America does something repressive, people always find a way to blame the victim. Also, most Muslims - and especially 'radical' Muslims - would not recognise the regimes in Muslim countries as legitimate. They would agree that these regimes are repressive

But actually, many Muslim countries *do* make allowances for minorities and visitors, of a kind which would be considered special treatment if reversed. Dubai last I heard, doesn't enforce its strict dress code for women against tourists on the beaches (though it does enforce its law - which Britain also has - against public sex). Saudi Arabia allows Christian expats to consume alcohol in private. Egypt lets its Coptic Christian minority keep pigs - there was unrest about a year back when they slaughtered all the pigs in a swine flu scare. (The Copts actually get mistreated horribly, but officially they're meant to be recognised as a minority with rights). Iran officially recognises Christians and Jews as 'people of the book', who have the right to practice their own religions (the Bahai in contrast are viewed as heretics and persecuted). Indonesia has traditionally made a lot of allowances for Bali (majority Hindu), which is why Bali has become the tourism site (usual Indonesian laws on dress and the like are either suspended or not enforced). There's lots of western tourists visit Muslim countries, and lots of western expat workers who work there, and cases of arrest etc for violating strict moral laws in Muslim countries are sufficiently rare that they make the news (the Dubai public sex case, someone else arrested with drugs and porn, and the 'Mohammed teddy bear' fiasco are the only ones I know of in recent times). I think in general, the attitude in Muslim countries is that if you aren't a Muslim, you don't have to obey Muslim law, just a minimum of civic law. In the Middle Ages, it was quite common for Christian sects to actually relocate to the Muslim world because they'd be treated better there than in Europe. Today, most Muslim countries are also very careful not to inflame the western media, and not to deter tourists or expats from going there (which would cost them money). I have heard many stories about how disrespectful British tourists can be once they get out the country.

Oh, and do you realise the British state was covertly supporting the salafi movement for most of the 1980s and 1990s? They were at the forefront of fighting (and defeating) the Soviets in Afghanistan, and then closely allied with the west during the Bosnian war. The small number of preachers who get persistent media coverage (e.g. Abu Hamza, Abu Qatada) generally moved to Britain during this period, and were fast-tracked into refugee status or citizenship because of their usefulness. One hears persistent allegations they were working for MI5 at the time, as recruiters/promoters of the Afghan 'jihad'. It's not tolerance, it's realpolitik.



Tequila
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09 Apr 2011, 9:11 pm

aspie1968 wrote:
I think one big difference is that pretty much everyone recognises that somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan is a repressive state, nobody claims they're essentially tolerant and are just being provoked by minorities.


I'm not saying that minorities are to blame. There is a big difference between the two. Mosques (as long as integration is followed) is fine. It's all about giving and taking. In Preston, I see largely Muslim/Pakistani areas (with big mosques) and then the white areas. It's not as bad as it could be and it is largely peaceful but it still sets a dividing line = them v us.

Like I say, a lot of the Muslims I know aren't like this (apart from as a wind-up). They see themselves as British/English than exclusively Muslim. I think that's the root of the problem - are they more devoted to their religion or to the country and place in which they live now? I want integration to happen but it's not going to happen any time soon. There are elements of Middle Eastern/South Asian culture I like and enjoy, certainly, there's a lot that I don't.

I don't respect Islam, just as I don't respect Christianity (although it is intertwined with our cultural heritage). I respect its right to be followed and to exist here, just as I respect the rights of other slightly batty practices. If you like praying, get on with it. Just don't drag us into it. Leave people alone and you'll get on fine. (The lengendary interfering proselytising of Jehovah's Witnesses and some Christians gets right on everyone's wick here, so it's not a minority v majority issue.)

Quote:
Whereas when Britain or France or America does something repressive, people always find a way to blame the victim.


Do you mean the government or its people? People in non-democracies have a terrible time differentiating the two. Case in point: Iraq war.

Quote:
Also, most Muslims - and especially 'radical' Muslims - would not recognise the regimes in Muslim countries as legitimate.


Ah, the regimes perhaps not - what are they after in its place though? Do they want a headbanging Islamic confederation of states or somesuch?

Quote:
They would agree that these regimes are repressive


So why do many Muslims insist on bringing the more divisive and repressive elements of their cultures with them then? I'm not saying that all or even most do, but there is a significant minority of people that does. The 'burqa'/veil issue for instance. They claim they wear it for religious or cultural reasons. To everyone else, though, it comes across as though they don't want to integrate into the rest of British/Western society. Wearing a face veil has security risks and it's difficult to talk to someone if you can't see their face. Talking to a ghost-like figure is very scary, especially as you can't work out what's going on. People that don't wear face veils (which are an awful lot of Muslims) don't have these problems. I dislike veiling but I don't think it should be illegal - just discouraged. You live in Britain, you take up (more or less) the culture and values of that country. There is a movement to prevent people being able to cover their face (because there are many reports on the FITwatch website of the police then using the identifying information to further harass peaceful protesters and even photographers).

Quote:
But actually, many Muslim countries *do* make allowances for minorities and visitors, of a kind which would be considered special treatment if reversed.


They shouldn't, though. That's the whole point. Freedom for all is what I'm getting at.

And no, I don't like the disgraceful behaviour of British tourists to (even secular) Muslim countries when they act like disgusting, feral louts. It embarrasses me to think that people could be so insensitive to another country's laws. We don't much like behaviour like this in our own nation, so I'm embarrassed when they do it elsewhere.

Quote:
Saudi Arabia allows Christian expats to consume alcohol in private.


Allows? Are you sure about that? It's illegal there and Westerners frequently run into trouble doing so if the government there wants to make an example.