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Laconvivencia
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21 Apr 2011, 1:18 pm

in my opinion, Jihad and Crusade both mean the same thing. Crusade is the Christian equivalent of what Jihad means to Fundamentalist Muslims, they both mean holy war!! ! Jihad and Crusade are both Fundamentalist words!! !



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21 Apr 2011, 5:33 pm

They're both similar in many respects but I feel that Crusades had a lot of financial motivation as well. A key difference is that Jihads are actually sanctioned within the Koran while Crusades are purely political, in that they are not part of the Bible at all. Either way each concept is equally distasteful to me. The first few Crusades could be seen as a response to the Jihad waged by the early Muslim Caliphate over the Middle-East & Maghreb, crushing most of the Byzantine Empire and converting millions. Later Crusades, such as those against Northern Europe or the Cathars, were more or less to eliminate competition for the Church in Europe


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Master_Pedant
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21 Apr 2011, 5:37 pm

Vigilans wrote:
They're both similar in many respects but I feel that Crusades had a lot of financial motivation as well. A key difference is that Jihads are actually sanctioned within the Koran while Crusades are purely political, in that they are not part of the Bible at all. Either way each concept is equally distasteful to me. The first few Crusades could be seen as a response to the Jihad waged by the early Muslim Caliphate over the Middle-East & Maghreb, crushing most of the Byzantine Empire and converting millions. Later Crusades, such as those against Northern Europe or the Cathars, were more or less to eliminate competition for the Church in Europe


From what I understand, though, Jihad needed authorization from religious leaders. And when the Muslims conquered the Holy Land, there was still quite a degree of tolerance over who would be allowed their (indeed, the First Crusaders probably killed many times more Christians and Jews than the Muslim conquerers did).


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21 Apr 2011, 5:45 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
They're both similar in many respects but I feel that Crusades had a lot of financial motivation as well. A key difference is that Jihads are actually sanctioned within the Koran while Crusades are purely political, in that they are not part of the Bible at all. Either way each concept is equally distasteful to me. The first few Crusades could be seen as a response to the Jihad waged by the early Muslim Caliphate over the Middle-East & Maghreb, crushing most of the Byzantine Empire and converting millions. Later Crusades, such as those against Northern Europe or the Cathars, were more or less to eliminate competition for the Church in Europe


From what I understand, though, Jihad needed authorization from religious leaders. And when the Muslims conquered the Holy Land, there was still quite a degree of tolerance over who would be allowed their (indeed, the First Crusaders probably killed many times more Christians and Jews than the Muslim conquerers did).


That is another difference that I feel is rooted in the nature of Jihad vs Crusade. Jihad is translated as 'struggle' and the purpose of this struggle is to defend and spread Islam (or so I believe...). Since Crusades were a reactionary movement and not actually part of Christian doctrine, they were suscetible to the temptations and weaknesses of individuals and their interpretation of what it meant to serve God- Jihad is quite clear in what is required (though it too is subject to abuse). Thus they [the Crusades] ended up being brutal conquests, while the early Muslim Jihad ended up spreading Islam, literacy, and knowledge throughout what eventually became the Muslim world


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simon_says
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21 Apr 2011, 6:02 pm

But of course the Islamic Invasion of North Africa, Europe and Sicily were about conquest. They were only turned back deep into France. And still today there are Berbers in North Africa that wouldn't p*ss on an Arab if he were on fire and still want them to leave 1300+ years later. And Bin Ladin is still crying about losing Spain.

As for which is worse? I have no idea. Chimps killing each other while making hooting noises are difficult to tell apart.



ruveyn
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21 Apr 2011, 6:12 pm

Laconvivencia wrote:
in my opinion, Jihad and Crusade both mean the same thing. Crusade is the Christian equivalent of what Jihad means to Fundamentalist Muslims, they both mean holy war!! ! Jihad and Crusade are both Fundamentalist words!! !


Jihad is Arabic for struggle.

The Muslims scholars speak of the Greater Jihad, the struggle against our temptations and weaknesses.

The Lesser Jihad is war in the name of God.

In German the corresponding word is Kampf which is struggle, not war.

ruveyn



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21 Apr 2011, 6:12 pm

I think they're both pretty bad. But that Jihad is actually part of the Koran makes it hard to reconcile the idea that Islam is about peace. Muslims might moan about the Crusades but they certainly aren't part of Christian doctrine


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ruveyn
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21 Apr 2011, 6:14 pm

Vigilans wrote:
I think they're both pretty bad. But that Jihad is actually part of the Koran makes it hard to reconcile the idea that Islam is about peace. Muslims might moan about the Crusades but they certainly aren't part of Christian doctrine


Islam means submission, not peace.

ruveyn



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21 Apr 2011, 6:20 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I think they're both pretty bad. But that Jihad is actually part of the Koran makes it hard to reconcile the idea that Islam is about peace. Muslims might moan about the Crusades but they certainly aren't part of Christian doctrine


Islam means submission, not peace.

ruveyn


Submit to Allah, then you can have peace...
:wink:


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Ammy
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23 Apr 2011, 4:56 am

Jihad means struggle. It can mean a lot of things in context.
A father working to earn a living is jihad for his family.
A student studying at school is jihad for knowledge.
A mother in labor is jihad for her son/daughter.
Jihad doesn't always mean war, it's just a misconception mass media forces on us. So, no, jihad =/= crusade.



The_Face_of_Boo
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23 Apr 2011, 5:51 am

Ammy wrote:
Jihad means struggle. It can mean a lot of things in context.
A father working to earn a living is jihad for his family.
A student studying at school is jihad for knowledge.
A mother in labor is jihad for her son/daughter.
Jihad doesn't always mean war, it's just a misconception mass media forces on us. So, no, jihad =/= crusade.


The OP is talking about the Jihad used for the "الفتوحات الإسلامية" (Muslim conquests). In that regard, jihad ~= crusade.



cdfox7
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23 Apr 2011, 6:08 am

I agree with most of the comments stating that Jihad is a struggle. Its an internal struggle to maintain faith, the struggle to improve the Muslim society, and the struggle to defend Islam. However the Western world and Islamic fundamentalists do interpret Jihad as a holy war.

A Crusade is a religiously sanctioned military campaign. So Ihmo its unfair to compare Jihad to a crusade. In really the Islamic fundamentalists profess to have a crusade in the name of (there warped view of) Islam.



AngelRho
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23 Apr 2011, 8:36 am

"Crusade" comes from the root word for "cross." It was under the cover of taking back the Holy Land from Muslim conquerors, but it really turned into something else.

Properly understood, the Crusades were considered by the church to be "holy wars." It seems to me that the word is more like a euphemism for "holy war." In contemporary usage it refers more to evangelizing.

Nowhere in the Bible are Christians (followers of Christ) instructed to wage war in the name of God; it seems we are more discouraged from taking part in war, although we ARE encouraged to fulfill our civic duty which might include going to war as may be required by conscription or voluntary military service. Even then, though, a "just war" isn't necessarily a holy war unless, of course, you are in a theocracy and stated objectives really are to convert non-believers, by force if necessary. The Bible teaches that a conversion should be done willingly by the new convert, so the Bible implies that potential converts have a choice. It follows that no war can be BIBLICALLY justified, at least not for that purpose, and even in a theocracy.

Jihadh refers to a "struggle." The struggle may be from without or from within. To honor Allah, one must battle the forces of evil from within himself, basically the struggle to be a good person in an evil world and resist temptation, etc. In referring to external forces, though, it's not just a call to defend against attack. It's also a call to take the offensive. The Koran doesn't necessarily call for the death of those who refuse to convert, but the DO have to submit to Islam by paying a tax. I forget the exact wording, but it basically means you have to buy your head back every year. You're condemned to death by default, but you're allowed to buy your life, and the act of paying that tax shows the unrepentant's willingness to acknowledge the authority of Islam and submit to it, even if they don't profess faith in it.

Christians are instructed to recognize no spiritual authority but God and place their faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus, recognizing the Jesus is God's Son. No Christian could pay such a tax in good conscience. There can therefore be no peace between Christians and Muslims.

Now, there ARE professing Muslims who do not wage jihadh against Christians but peacefully coexist with them. Without getting into further details of what the Koran says about justifying such a coexistence, the Koran labels Muslims who refuse to take part in jihadh as hypocrites. So a feature of jihadh as "holy war" also means getting rid of hypocrites along with the infidels.