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cdfox7
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10 May 2011, 7:18 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Just because a movable asset is located in Scotland does not mean that it becomes an asset of an independent Scottish government. The Soviets may have done that with its constituent republics, but that does not mean that the same would hold true of the United Kingdom.

If the UK had launch silos peppered around the glens, then it might be a different story, but with a mobile launch platform, the weapons' home base is incidental to the question of who would control them after independence.


The base is an issue as the SNP have voiced there policy of scraping Trident. The Lib Dem's also hold the same policy. The Trident replacement issue is one hell of a political hot potato.



visagrunt
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11 May 2011, 11:46 am

None of which is relevant to an independent Scotland. Replacements for Trident will be decided at Westminster and in Whitehall, not in Edinburgh.

In theory, England might seek to lease the base from Scotland to continue to deploy it's vessels from there--and an SNP led independent administration might reject such an approach, but England is not without other resources to deal with Trident, its replacement (if any) and its launch platform.


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11 May 2011, 11:57 am

visagrunt wrote:
None of which is relevant to an independent Scotland. Replacements for Trident will be decided at Westminster and in Whitehall, not in Edinburgh.

In theory, England might seek to lease the base from Scotland to continue to deploy it's vessels from there--and an SNP led independent administration might reject such an approach, but England is not without other resources to deal with Trident, its replacement (if any) and its launch platform.


---------------

Quite.

One of the questions, anyway, on any proposed secession is where do you stop? If England is removed, Glasgow and satellites has really not so much in common with Aberdeen and Buchan, and I know the Aberdonians [nevr asked a Glaswegian] could live without the [I forget the local term - too many years - can you remind me?] people of Edinburgh.

Who was it in the divvying up after WWI is said to have said "Is every little language to have a countryt of its own?"



Master_Pedant
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11 May 2011, 12:17 pm

visagrunt wrote:
None of which is relevant to an independent Scotland. Replacements for Trident will be decided at Westminster and in Whitehall, not in Edinburgh.

In theory, England might seek to lease the base from Scotland to continue to deploy it's vessels from there--and an SNP led independent administration might reject such an approach, but England is not without other resources to deal with Trident, its replacement (if any) and its launch platform.


Nice, simple theory. But the whole situation would more likely be a whole sovereignty clash between the Parliament of the New Nation of Scotland and Westminster over who has ownership over the bases. "It's on our land", "no, we have a protocol stating this in the declaration of nationhood, etc, etc." There'd certainly be a propoganda war and the whole issue would be hard to decide as "Parliamentary supremacy" is a difficult principle to uphold when dealing with two distinct national parliaments claiming jurisdiction over said land. Regardless, as numerous posters have pointed out, moving nuclear sub bases is not easy.


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JakobVirgil
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11 May 2011, 12:28 pm

Philologos wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
None of which is relevant to an independent Scotland. Replacements for Trident will be decided at Westminster and in Whitehall, not in Edinburgh.

In theory, England might seek to lease the base from Scotland to continue to deploy it's vessels from there--and an SNP led independent administration might reject such an approach, but England is not without other resources to deal with Trident, its replacement (if any) and its launch platform.


---------------

Quite.

One of the questions, anyway, on any proposed secession is where do you stop? If England is removed, Glasgow and satellites has really not so much in common with Aberdeen and Buchan, and I know the Aberdonians [nevr asked a Glaswegian] could live without the [I forget the local term - too many years - can you remind me?] people of Edinburgh.

Who was it in the divvying up after WWI is said to have said "Is every little language to have a countryt of its own?"



Teuchter?
Sassenach?
Porridge Wog?
:lol:
I will start writing my apology now.


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visagrunt
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11 May 2011, 12:46 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Nice, simple theory. But the whole situation would more likely be a whole sovereignty clash between the Parliament of the New Nation of Scotland and Westminster over who has ownership over the bases. "It's on our land", "no, we have a protocol stating this in the declaration of nationhood, etc, etc." There'd certainly be a propoganda war and the whole issue would be hard to decide as "Parliamentary supremacy" is a difficult principle to uphold when dealing with two distinct national parliaments claiming jurisdiction over said land. Regardless, as numerous posters have pointed out, moving nuclear sub bases is not easy.


No, ownership of the bases is clear: land and fixtures belonging to the predecessor state fall to the successor state in which they are located; that which is not nailed down can be repatriated, subject to negotiated agreement between the states. The bases are located in Scotland and would be Scottish property--the subs belong to the Royal Navy which, frankly, Scotland would be foolish to take on (but could, in theory, make a pitch for).

In devolution there would be much more significant issues to take on.

Would Scotland have successor rights to accede to the Treaty of Rome and to Mastricht? (International law would likely hold that England, Wales and Northern Ireland would be the successor state to the United Kingdom, compelling Scotland to gain accession to the EU on its own, absent some other decision in Brussels and Strasbourg.)

Who would own the capital stock of the Bank of England? If not divded, then how much circulating currency would be transferred to a Scottish Central Bank? Would Scotland be permitted to hold a Sterling peg for its currency? If so, what input would Scotland have to monetary policy? How much currency would the Bank of England be required to repurchase from the market in the event that Scotland sought admission to the Euro?

What would be the citizenship and residency rights of citizens of one constituent kingdom, principality or province within the territory of another after independence? (Assuming an interval during which Scotland would not yet be an EU member).

What would be the asset transfer from the government of the United Kingdom to the government of an independent Scotland? What is the method for valuing the transfer of the intangible assets of the Crown Estate (such as salvage rights and the foreshore)? What is the method for valuing historical landmarks? How are properties held outside of the UK to be divided, and valued?

What role would a Scottish government have in the direction of the government of British Dependent Territories? If these are to remain within the exclusive jurisdiction of the English Crown, what compensation is due to the government of Scotland?

The location of nuclear subs is a relatively trivial question outside of these.


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Philologos
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11 May 2011, 4:15 pm

Jacob -

Teuchter [I had to look it up, if it is used in Aberdeen I never heard it] points the wrong way. They of Edinburgh MIGHT perhaps apply it to the boondocks of Buchan, but not vice versa.

Sassenach only works if you are of the Gaelic persuasion - that is NOT Aberdeen - and applies to the Anglos. Does it work in reference to Lowlanders?

And Porridge Wog?! ! I guess you have never strolled through Edinburgh feeding the squirrels and eating soup into which the chef accidentally spilled about a cup and a half of pepper [Oy - I still taste it].

The whole point of viewing Edinburgh as a Scot from anywhere else is they are snooty.

I half remember a term phonetically about "pant loaf" - from a pronunciation of "pound loaf" heard as uppity.- but I THINK that was used to refer for instance to people from Torry.

Has anyone more recent Aberdeen consciousness that I have? Help me out here.



cdfox7
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11 May 2011, 5:37 pm

I agree with Master_Pedant if Scotland is independent & Trident is still in HMNB Clyde there will be a locking of horns between Holyrood and Westminster. Last year an UK think tank published a report into the Trident replacement (http://www.rusi.org/news/ref:N4C4ED70C3F1F7/) three out of there four recommendations where a submarine launch system.

The Trafalgar class sub are in the middle of being decommissioned, the Astute class is there replacement tho there not designed for nuclear warheads. HMNB Devonport is the only suitable home in England for the Vanguard class however my big consern again using Davonport as the home of Trident is the four incidences of nuclear waste leaks within the last ten years, two of which with Vangaurad class subs.

Visagrunt economical speaking, the Royal Bank of Scotland issue of banknotes for Scotland (So do the Bank of Scotland & Clydesdale Bank), then again RBS are the last thing the Scots need as a central bank, as most of the RBS groups is owned my the UK government due to there recklessness in the financial criss

Putting things in perspective here, Westminster is now in the driving seat of Scottish independence, as the SNP what to hold off a independence referendum into after the Scottish Parliament reform bill has been passed.



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11 May 2011, 6:26 pm

You guys should get rid of your nuclear weapons and save yourself the money.



CosmicRuss
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11 May 2011, 6:27 pm

Philologos,

The expression is 'pan loaf' for posh, there is a wikipedia page on the explanation.
Glaswegians are weegies and Edinburgh folk have fur coats 'n' nae knickers.

Hope that help ?

I can send you some mealy puddings and rowies if you want.........and some Gaviscon. :D



cdfox7
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11 May 2011, 7:07 pm

Jacoby wrote:
You guys should get rid of your nuclear weapons and save yourself the money.


I made my view quite clean about the UK's nukes in a comment on page 2 of this thread. I good friend of mine from university works in the nuclear industry. So my view on Trident is that we keep it as a deterrent & for the Senior Service to look after them.

Any country with nuclear reactor techonlogy also has the techonlogy to make nuclear weaponry

Personal I don't trust Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Pakistan having nuclear reactors!! !



Philologos
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11 May 2011, 8:15 pm

CosmicRuss wrote:
Philologos,

The expression is 'pan loaf' for posh, there is a wikipedia page on the explanation.
Glaswegians are weegies and Edinburgh folk have fur coats 'n' nae knickers.

Hope that help ?

I can send you some mealy puddings and rowies if you want.........and some Gaviscon. :D


Well, I wisnae hallucinating - though I could swear my Aberdonian sources said it with a t in there. But that is long ago and it is not a small town.

My digestion even now is very good - though if you can't handle hydrocarbons you should stay away from rowies. Mealy pudding - you have to watch out. bought a lot in London [I know, not the best idea when you don';t know the butcher] - slice one open, big fat maggot. That dinner was spoilt.

Thanks for the offer, but Scots I know who tried to smuggle in meat products just had them confiscated. What would security think of a parcel or mealy puddings in your case?



Philologos
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11 May 2011, 8:16 pm

CosmicRuss wrote:
Philologos,

The expression is 'pan loaf' for posh, there is a wikipedia page on the explanation.
Glaswegians are weegies and Edinburgh folk have fur coats 'n' nae knickers.

Hope that help ?

I can send you some mealy puddings and rowies if you want.........and some Gaviscon. :D


Well, I wisnae hallucinating - though I could swear my Aberdonian sources said it with a t in there. But that is long ago and it is not a small town.

My digestion even now is very good - though if you can't handle hydrocarbons you should stay away from rowies. Mealy pudding - you have to watch out. bought a lot in London [I know, not the best idea when you don';t know the butcher] - slice one open, big fat maggot. That dinner was spoilt.

Thanks for the offer, but Scots I know who tried to smuggle in meat products just had them confiscated. What would security think of a parcel or mealy puddings in your case?