An option for showing your sex in your post label.

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I suggest a option for showing wether your are male, female or hemaphrodite on your label when posting in the form of the standard symbolism and for hemaphrodites a combined symbol.

Yeah. Some forum members (in fact, some in this very topic, though I won't name names) have mistaken me for a woman because of my avatar.

I'm sure I remember sex was shown when I first joined WP. Maybe it got removed? I think it would be a good idea simply for linguistic purposes. I'm often part way through posting a reply and need to use a pronoun like he or she and guess the wrong one based on the username / avatar image. This then gets picked up by the OP who complains about being assigned the wrong gender.

Thanks for the subtlety

This is a complex topic. As you can see, there was a thread on a closely related topic, "Adding a third gender option", which has been moved to the LGBT forum. It might be worth reading that, to get an idea of some of the complexities.

I definitely think that the unambiguous word "sex" should be distinguished from the ambiguous word "gender". In the present case, "gender" (with all its ambiguities) is what is meant, not the brutally unambiguous "sex".

I object to having to declare physical sex with every post. (I don't object to having to declare it in the profile. Some users, however, do object to such a requirement.)

I have no objection, however, to having to declare gender, which, as Verdandi points out on page 6 of the other thread (Tue 03 May 2011 5:20 pm), is relevant to forms of address: "he" or "she", etc.

It should be kept simple (with forms of address in mind). I suggest three options only: "M", "F", "either".

I would choose "either", meaning that I am happy to be referred to either as "he" or "she".

(I have a mild preference for the latter, but no wish at all to impose such a use of language on someone who knows that my physical sex is male, and therefore wishes to refer to me as "he". This is just one example of how complicated it can get, how careful you need to be, and therefore, the importance of keeping it as simple as possible, so as not to create headaches for a lot of people!)

I have not responded to the poll, which does not allow for this realistic complexity.

If you don't like my suggestion of "either", then just as good is the option to leave gender undeclared. Most people would declare it. In the case of someone who doesn't declare it (I wouldn't), people have the option of just using "he" or "she", whichever of the two they feel like using, or of referring to the user's profile, to see what the person's own preference is (and also to see what their physical sex is, if that information is still required on registration).

The displayed field would then be Gender: M/F/blank (with "M" and "F" perhaps being represented by discreet little Mars and Venus symbols).

Afterthought: If you like, rather than having a blank field as an option, both of the Mars and Venus symbols could be displayed, indicating that either "he" or "she" might be appropriate.

Another subtle point is that, if gender is displayed along with each post (fine by me), and if physical sex is displayed in the profile (also fine by me, but not with everybody), someone might choose to address a person according to their physical sex, and not according to their psychological gender. That would be rude, of course, but I don't personally feel that information should be suppressed in order to make such rudeness impossible. (I'm pretty sure some others will disagree with that.)

Yet another subtlety (which I've already mentioned in the other thread) is that, in my opinion, someone who has had, or who even intends to have, "sex change" (i.e. "gender reassignment"!) surgery should be perfectly free to state, not only their psychological gender, but also their physical sex, in their user profile, as the one they have chosen.

Last edited by Twirlip on 11 May 2011, 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

OP said option. He/She/Other (what's the proper pronoun?) suggested it, not as a requirement to show, just an option.

I do think that we'd be better off with selecting sex and gender and choosing if we want one or both shown.

So maybe the LGBT symbol should be a pink triangle ... naaahh, it's been done to death already.

He/she/...! said option for sex. I reject that, because I reject the default implication that sex = gender. It is just as simple to have an option for gender, and indeed, re-reading the OP, I see that I agree completely with the look of his/her/...! suggestion (even down to the Mars/Venus symbols used), and I only disagree with labelling "gender" as "sex".

(In the other thread, I have already expressed my disagreement with the present labelling of the mandatory sex field in the profile as "gender", which equally confuses the issue.)

The practical issue is how people are to be referred to, as "he" or "she". That is precisely what "gender" means, in practice. It is not what "sex" means: "sex" means what kind of body you have.

(Confusingly, the word "gender" can also mean simply physical sex. As was said in the other thread, none of us controls the use of English. That is why, from the start, I have emphasised the need to use "sex" when "sex" is meant, and "gender" when psychological gender is meant, in the present context, so that at least we know what we are talking about. Nobody listened ...)

The OP confused this issue, for instance by referring to "hermaphrodites", making it entirely clear that he/she/...! believes that the appropriate form of address should be entirely determined by the physical sex of the person's body. I and others dispute this (but I, for one, don't think anyone should be prevented from using language in that way if they want, even though some of us find it insensitive - just so long as people who want to be more sensitive are also allowed to be, instead of an insensitive policy being imposed by default).

The simplest imaginable change to the present system is:

Leave the "Gender" field in the profile exactly as it is, but make it perfectly clear that it relates only to the preferred form of address, and not necessarily to physical sex.

Allow it to be left blank.

Allow (or even require) it to be displayed along with every post (and if blank, either display nothing, or display both symbols).

If a declaration of physical sex is also required (i.e. still required?), then add a field for that, but only in the profile. (Transsexuals can interpret this as being for their chosen sex/gender.)

Optionally have a free text field in the profile where additional information can optionally be given (but of course most people will leave this blank).

Only display gender, not sex, along with posts.

hmmm, got a point on the sex & gender issue.

My initial intention for posting this topic was to put a halt to the shared agony of preferred addressal in post and thus the confusing he/she problems.

I suggest the following:
-he/she/undefined/no preference as the options for adressal.
-Where 'undefined' is a default option.
-Words like 'preferred addressal' could stand in front of the choice in the post label.

I state again, a option to show in your post label - not a minimal requirement. Although I don't see the harm as a minimal requirement if it's stated this way.

I do notice with myself when male or female is stated in the profile page that my approach to the person is different. Apart from preferred addressal, someone's percieved sex plays a big role in how that person is treated by the same sex and by the other sex - this isn't just me.
Not stating any sex could confuse a person quickly to assume they are the same sex as themselves and thus treat them as such if they can't already assume something from postlabel and profile information.

I do understand this can be a very complicated issue, but for sake of miscommunication let's keep it clear for everybody, even for outsiders and newcomers.

It's never been shown since I've been here. I do think it would be appropriate - just to indicate whether someone wishes to be addressed as "he" or "she". However, the vociferous minority don't agree: they'd prefer to have each person list a whole slew of reasons why they are neither male nor female.

This seems to be an area of heated agreement. I haven't seen anyone ("vociferous minority" or silent majority) object to the idea that knowing a person's gender is useful for all concerned, so that it is easy for people to know whether to use "he" or "she". The devil is in the details. Even so, I have repeatedly tried to suggest possible conventions which would make life easy for all parties, so that those who want to give attention to the matter can do so, while those who don't want to give attention to it need not do so. I have to say, I have been astounded at how difficult it is to get my points across. I never knew I was that bad at communicating! I gave up on the other thread (coming back after a few days because someone kindly PM'd me about it), and will give up on this one, too, if I can't do any better. And I'm certainly not "vociferous" by nature - just verbose and awkward when it comes to communicating online about topics of personal significance. It would help, by the way, if you have a disagreement with me, or anyone else, to say who you are disagreeing with, and quote what they said that you are disagreeing with, rather than using scattergun phrases like "vociferous minority". Before we know where we are it'll be "knockers" and "moaning Minnies" and "the enemy within" and "political correctness gone mad". Your paraphrase of views other than your own is an insulting caricature. Of course no-one wants to impose some unwieldy apparatus of gender specification on people for whom it is not relevant! It's really annoying to see such a crude misrepresentation when I've bent over backwards to suggest conventions which would be simple for everybody to use, and which allow people to ignore questions of gender sensitivity if they want to!

I'm for this.

I mistook someone as a woman the other day - in the particular occasion this also meant I mistook their sexuality too - this was embarrassing, the sort of social faux pas that really bothers me and makes me want to crawl under a rock.

Gender is a VERY complex issue, but maybe an option for 'male' 'female' and 'other'? Online it is important to have gender neutral language, but it does make things more complicated and difficult for those of us who may be a bit iffy with such social rules. *shrugs*

I'm having trouble concentrating at the moment, but I think that it might be difficult for people to see any difference in practice between "undefined" and "no preference" in the matter of what pronouns should be used. If referring to someone else, I would only want to know whether they wish to be "he" or "she", or don't mind either way. Equally, that is all the information I would want to give to let people know what pronouns to use to refer to me. Any further complexities can safely be left to the user profile. Also, I see nothing wrong with simply "Gender", rather than the clumsy phrase "preferred addressal", or "mode of address", or anything like that - it would seem stuffy and formal, wouldn't it? Sorry if I'm not thinking straight - it's getting difficult to do so!

Again, I'm not sure if I'm thinking clearly, but I can see no real distinction between an "option" and a "requirement", if the gender field associated with posts is allowed to be left blank. Surely, if there is to be such a field, then there are only the three options: state "male", state "female", or don't state anything, and allow people to address you as either?

My head is starting to spin again. I don't know if I'm missing something important, and it's not all as simple as I thought it was. It's not as simple as "Everybody is just a man or a woman and that's that", but it's not much more complicated than that! In practice, most people will state M or F. The so-called "vociferous minority" who don't - I'm still fuming over that phrase! - will create some head-scratching, to be sure, but (a) confusion will usually be resolved by looking at the profile, and (b) we seem to be managing pretty well at present with everybody having no defined gender attached to their posts, so it will hardly be an "agony" if a few people like me choose to continue in the same way!



Yes, I definitely feel differently about someone on the Internet depending on whether I believe them to be male or female. The amusing and ridiculous thing is that I am extremely bad at guessing a person's gender online, and I even think I guess wrong more often than I guess right! But I'm fine with that, and I've never known anyone to be offended.



I'm trying (perhaps in both senses of the word), but it can be hard work to make things simple. I'm getting frustrated because I can see how simple it could be, but I can never seem to get my points across.

That might be because you have not spent much time here, yet.I quoted Tallyman, because I was responding to his post. I'm afraid I can't comment on any other posts you may feel I should have read, other than the one I responded to.If I disagree with anything, it is to disagree with the permanent arguing over this subject. The English language does not have a gender-neutral pronoun. Attempts to introduce such a thing "have been largely ignored by the general English-speaking public".

I think its a good idea. And it could maybe cater to the LGBT people who were talking about 'third gender' options in another thread. I would also hope that it includes the option 'Sex: Yes, Please'

No-one in either of these two recent threads has in any way suggested in any way influencing anyone to use gender-neutral pronouns against their will and against the grain of the English language, so why on Earth are you bringing this up? I'm sure you disagree with lots of things, but what do they have to do with the questions actually at issue?