What is your opinion on the creation of Israel?

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before anybody goes off callling me a racist or a bigot, know that I am an American of Japanese, German and Jewish ancestry....I view all peoples equally for we are all Gods creation.....or we all evolved as a species together as science proves. What I say below all refers to the people in questions unity as a culture, war ability, political unity, effective economy....whatever makes one country 'stronger' than another....im not suggesting that anyone is superior or inferior genetically...just that they are suporior or inferior in the fields mentioned above, for those areas can be measured unlike Eugenics (which is total BS). The Jewish people only excel overall in one of those areas which is unparalleled cultural unity, which is why they survive today.

The strongest peoples have their own countries, the weak do not. The defeated, usually having lost its cultural connectivity probably assimilate into their conquerers gene pool.

America took its country from a myriad of Native American nations and peoples....as well as from Mexico....but then again Mexico was taken from the natives by the Spanish before that....

Modern Japanese people exist because their ancestors crossed the sea and conquered the native Jomon peoples that inhabited Japan before them.

Modern German peoples are the way they are (genetically and culturally) largely because they were strong enough in the past to stop the Roman incursions into their lands. ...The Romans were responsible for much of the genetic diversity in Europe, middle east and north africa...

The way I see it Israel is just a kind of sympathetic 2nd chance given to a peoples who lost their nation millennia ago. In 1500 BC or something like that King Davids kingdom was defeated by the Babylonians.... then again when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and scatted the Jewish people all over the Empire. That usually is the end of a culture for most defeated peoples....but the Jews have persistently kept their culture alive whereever they went which is why it has survived 3000 years without a homeland.

Are we gonna say sorry and give back America to Native Americans? h*ll no. not gonna happen.

Will Japan test their citizens and tell everyone with "Yayoi" genes to get the h^ll out of the country and go back to Korea and China where their ancestors came from? nope.

Will Australia give back the country to aborigines and the Maori? no.

Will China give back Tibet to Tibetians.....dont think so.

I believe any nation supporting Israel is hypocritical because I doubt any nation would give up its lands to whomever occupied it before them.

All in all, what I want to say is it doesnt matter who was in what country first....its who is strong enough to occupy it and make it their own.This is the case for EVERY country on the planet. if you really want to take this argument further and say the Jewish people deserve Israel because it was taken from them in wars.....you can pretty much say Europe and Asia should belong to Homo Erectus (or whatever species lived there before humans) oh wait, we were stronger and beat them! Re-creating Israel is like....taking a prehistoric plant and trying to re-integrate it into nature.....theres a reason it died out, cus it couldnt compete with its neighbors. and to take it even further back you can say we should take those lands from Homo Erectus and give it back to plants and animals....Should America re-create the Confederacy cus they lost? Should we give back Europe, north africa and the middle east to the people of Rome? Should we re-create the Soviet Union? No they all no longer exist for one reason or another.....but one thing is certain, if you dont exist anymore its because someone was stronger than you....or you weakened from within until other were stronger than you in comparision (every large empire that rose and fell) .

All that being said, I can totally understand why Isreals new neighbors despise them so much. If the United Nations decided that America should return the continent to Native American tribes, I guarantee you that patriot or not, conservative or liberal....all Americans will be ENRAGED much like Palestinians are.

So can anyone tell me why Israel should exist other than from a sentimental viewpoint? I kind of see it as the world saying, "Ok you've proven that you are extremely resilient culture and people (surviving 2000+ years) ...and we are tired of having you in our country so we're gonna co-operate to give you a country of your own"

Last edited by tangomike on 27 May 2011, 1:17 am, edited 8 times in total.

I agree that they didn't deserve it and that we handled the situation crappily. Privilages are won, not given. And the Jews only served to mess up the surrounding area after being given their country back.

There are many misconceptions about the formation of Israel. Long story short, it was actually a pretty gradual process. Pogroms and the like forced immigration of Jews out of various areas from the 19th century to World II, and some of those immigrants went to Palestine. Over time, more and more Jews immigrated to Palestine. And well back before World War II even the Zionist movement was working on buying up the land to be used for the Jewish state. That's right, they bought the land fair and square.

After World War II, I think it was 1948 or so, Israel declared independence from Palestine. Israel was attacked immediately but fought the surrounding Arab states off. So when you say something like

Israel now has nukes and a strong army. The surrounding Arab states don't like that they're there but they can't make them leave.

Israel took the land back. Will Israel give back Israel to the Palestinians? Just like you said, the answer is no.

no they will not, and in their position I wouldnt either. The USA and the European countries back Israel for political reasons so they will hang on for dear life....also when you say they bought the land fair and square do you mean the Palestianians sold Israel the land with full knowledge that they would use it to create a state? As in " Ok we will sell you Israel for XXX amount with full knowledge and approval that you intend to secede"?

...if not that was a rebellion backed by a conglomerate of Western powers with their interests at heart. A Coup if you will.

I don't have time to go into the full story. The creation was messy and not a singular event.

The Zionists BOUGHT the land beforehand. Much later the plan was presented by the UN to split Palestine into two states. The Arabs and Jews in Palestine went to civil war over the plan and the Jews won. They TOOK it by WAR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947–1948_Civil_War_in_Mandatory_Palestine

Israel declared independence after the British left the area which started another war with the Arabs, which Israel won. They were strong enough to occupy it and make it their own.

Did you get lost on the way to the politics sub-forum son?

Yeah, this does seem more like a PPR topic.

I guess I missed it. I somehow thought the Politics subforum was only for politics involving autsism and aspergers, i dunno why.
Can a mod slash admin move this?

I see well if what you say is not jaded by a bias and is in fact then thats pretty legitimate I suppose. Thats how America started after all. I was kind of led to believe that the UN handed them the land after the war...and had just taken it from Palestine under the premise that it was 'originally theirs'.

Most of your statements are incorrect, particularly with regard to colonial politics, which were much more complicated than the simplistic X-versus-Y narratives you present; and that's where you are not just glaringly factually wrong, such as where you refer to Australian Maori, categorise human evolution as direct conflicts between distinct subgroups, talk about the "creation" of Israel and so on.

And your moral conclusions are exactly as idiotic as can be expected drawing from such a flawed dataset.

Bollocks. Think I just remembered why I stay out of PPR.

(Thread moved from Random to PPR)

In other words the philosophy is that if you are a strong military power you have the perfect right to crap on anything and everybody in you way. Might makes right and humanitarian concerns are not worth paying attention to. No doubt that's what much of human history illustrates and apparently some people still accept that with full approval.

Taking land from people of inferior strength is what made America great. It works! So why knock it?

ruveyn

Hitler tried it, Stalin tried it, it takes a bit of time, but not every group is as helpless as the American Indians or the Australian Aborigines. There will be an inevitable reaction and it will not be pretty.

Canaan belongs to Israel.

You may not be a parakeet (I have genuine doubts) but you have to provide better credentials to be approved of as God.

Excuse me? I am not seeking approval for nor making any claims of the sort. God did give the land of Canaan to Israel though, and I will stand by that.