Should drinking alcohol during pregnancy be a crime?

Page 2 of 5 [ 70 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next


Should the stupid mother be punished for drinking and/or smoking during pregnancy
Yes 32%  32%  [ 8 ]
She has the right to screw up her children, so No 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
I don't care 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
The poll is obviously biased 44%  44%  [ 11 ]
None of the above 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 25

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

13 Jun 2011, 10:03 pm

While consuming alcohol while pregnant is not advisable, how can it be a crime? The fetus is not a person and has no rights so harm to the fetus is not a criminal act.

ruveyn



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

14 Jun 2011, 11:03 am

Quote:
Private ownership of the means of production is theft.


In any governmental country where this has already been tried, it's lead to the state and its aligned cohorts enriching themselves, instituting a totalitarian regime at the expense of a scared and defenceless public where anyone who shows signs of dissent are tortured, imprisoned or murdered.

It's never worked in any country before - why would it work now? Why bring such misery on people for insane ideological reasons?



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

14 Jun 2011, 11:17 am

My wife has only one working lung due to her mother smoking during her pregnancy. Is her mother responsible for that? Yes.



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

14 Jun 2011, 11:20 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
My wife has only one working lung due to her mother smoking during her pregnancy.


Was it proven directly that this was because of it, or was it listed as a possible factor?



MollyTroubletail
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Oct 2010
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,185
Location: Canada

14 Jun 2011, 11:25 am

Even if such a law was passed, how could you enforce it?

How would anyone know if a woman was or was not pregnant while consuming alcohol?

Would you require every woman to do an on-the-spot pregnancy test before she could go into a liquor store or a bar?

Would monthly pregnancy tests become mandatory for all women every month?

Would someone be keeping track of every drink that every woman took, in order to be able to prove that she had had a drink after she in fact gave birth?

Would you just refuse any alcohol to all women with possibly big bellies?

Would you only punish women who were obviously drunk while actually in labour and delivery?

Would you punish women retroactively who had babies diagnosed with FAS?

Enforcing such laws just boggles my mind.



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

14 Jun 2011, 11:28 am

As you make out, it's unworkable. Any effort to try and enforce it would just lead to a lot of nastiness and discrimination and give nasty people another excuse to pick on someone considered 'beneath' them.



AceOfSpades
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,754
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia

14 Jun 2011, 12:39 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Burzum wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, until abortion and birth control access are accessible and affordable to all,
a pickled brain-damaged kid born to an alcoholic mother is the fault of the state.

I have absolutely no love for statism, but using the state as a scapegoat is silly. If a mother drinks when she is pregnant, it is her fault, not the state's.


Using the woman as a scapegoat is silly.
If the state refuses to provide access to reproductive control,
FAS is the state's fault,
not that of women who drink.

See preceding notes regarding emotional rhetoric such as "mother" as applied to pregnant women.
So if I get drunk, T-bone someone hard enough to give that person brain damage and can't pay the deductible, it's society's fault? Hey, I didn't choose to drink and drive, society made me do it! :roll:

IIRC the average abortion costs $468. That's pretty affordable for most people, especially when the majority of the poor own things like color TV with cable. There are also resources available for helping with the cost. As for drinking during pregnancy being a crime, there are so many things that can be done to harm the fetus whether intentional or unintentional it isn't really practical to enforce.



Last edited by AceOfSpades on 14 Jun 2011, 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

14 Jun 2011, 12:43 pm

Tequila wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
My wife has only one working lung due to her mother smoking during her pregnancy.


Was it proven directly that this was because of it, or was it listed as a possible factor?


I only know what my wife told me, and she had said it was the causation according to the doctor. Other than that, I don't know.



LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

14 Jun 2011, 2:06 pm

The state does not own my body whether I'm pregnant or not.
Car accidents are one of the most frequent causes of death of pregnant women (and their fetuses); should women be forbidden from riding in cars while pregnant?
Homicide by male partners is another frequent cause of death to pregnant women (and their fetuses); maybe women should just be held in protective custody while they're pregnant, so they can be protected and fed a diet that will benefit the fetus. This way they could also be kept from gaining too much weight, which has been shown to increase the risk of diabetes and other problems in the future child.
Should a woman who does not pre-consent to deliver by c-section, when none is indicated, have her child taken away?
http://advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/bl ... tory_o.php

And what if they want to home-school their children after they're born - should the state take the kids away for their own protection? What if they want to teach their kids ideologies that the majority find repugnant?

What if a woman chooses not to breast-feed her child - should the state take measures to force her to do so, given the known, significant benefits of breast-feeding for the infant?

Women do not cease to be citizens when they get pregnant. I don't know why that is so f*****g difficult for so many people (usually men, coincidentally) to understand.



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

14 Jun 2011, 2:09 pm

LKL wrote:
The state does not own my body whether I'm pregnant or not.


Exactly. This is telling people what they can and can't do with their own bodies again. Eventually we'll stop having such an illiberal mindset.

I need another drink.



AceOfSpades
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,754
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia

14 Jun 2011, 2:10 pm

LKL wrote:
The state does not own my body whether I'm pregnant or not.
Car accidents are one of the most frequent causes of death of pregnant women (and their fetuses); should women be forbidden from riding in cars while pregnant?
Homicide by male partners is another frequent cause of death to pregnant women (and their fetuses); maybe women should just be held in protective custody while they're pregnant, so they can be protected and fed a diet that will benefit the fetus. This way they could also be kept from gaining too much weight, which has been shown to increase the risk of diabetes and other problems in the future child.
Should a woman who does not pre-consent to deliver by c-section, when none is indicated, have her child taken away?
http://advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/bl ... tory_o.php

And what if they want to home-school their children after they're born - should the state take the kids away for their own protection? What if they want to teach their kids ideologies that the majority find repugnant?

What if a woman chooses not to breast-feed her child - should the state take measures to force her to do so, given the known, significant benefits of breast-feeding for the infant?

Women do not cease to be citizens when they get pregnant. I don't know why that is so f***ing difficult for so many people (usually men, coincidentally) to understand.
I now have a pro-choice stance so I dunno why you're telling this to me. I also said it shouldn't be illegal. I just found it ridiculous that VW blames society for a woman choosing to drink during pregnancy.



LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

14 Jun 2011, 2:12 pm

Ace, I was responding to the OP, not to you directly.



AceOfSpades
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,754
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia

14 Jun 2011, 2:14 pm

Oh ok I just thought you were addressing me since you mentioned car accidents. I agree with the idea that the Government getting overprotective at the cost of autonomy is ridiculous.



LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

14 Jun 2011, 2:17 pm

I'm apparently not being too clear today. Chalk it up to having a cold, I guess. :?



BurntOutMom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 502
Location: Oregon, USA

14 Jun 2011, 5:39 pm

This is one of those personal grey areas that is hard for me to define.

I believe in a woman's right to choose.. I believe that no one should have to carry to term if they absolutely do not want to...

However, I think that if it is your intention to incubate a fetus for the duration and the raise your parasite up to be a little human, then you should really not go f*****g up it's physiology. If you give birth to a child and it is found to have a blood alcohol level or drugs in it's system, then DHS takes the baby home and you go home to jail. This makes sense to me, but what about the previous 9 months of abuse on the fetus' body?

I know that to some my thoughts on this are contradictory. I admit that. I think the difference is intent. If you, the woman, INTEND for the fetus to be born, then you should have certain responsibilities to it.

I am fully aware that making laws to this affect would be difficult, as would enforcing it. Crack babies just make me sad. Fetal alcohol syndrome, makes me sad. BUT.. look at GW Bush... he's proof a FAS baby can grow up to be anything, right? LOL :wink: