Politics...
techstepgenr8tion
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01 Jul 2011, 4:46 pm
I think there's something we often forget - that I get reminded my NT's often. We're used to having lives that are struggles, we have to fight valiantly as aspies/autistics to even keep our heads above water, so when we see other people struggling we tend to think they're people trying as hard as we are and are getting buckled under by society's demands towering over their own functionality. To a degree there's some of that, but not nearly as much as what we'd intuit.
Try to imagine yourself at, say three or four years old before this all came down on you or before you had a worry in the world aside from who might have been hording your toys or whether or not Dairy Queen was happening after dinner.... then imagine, I'd have to say a pretty big and damaging minority of NT's (who other NT's can see as clear of even clearer than we can), who's lives have tested them about as much that they're still in that psychological space. I've met full-on professionals with the introspect of grade schoolers, often. Needless to say, it doesn't do a lot for the level of reality that they carry with them either through life or to the voting machine.
_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin
03 Jul 2011, 11:51 am
ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Communism can only be applied through force. People are only altruistic and collectivist when it suits their personal interests. We've moved beyond small subsistence existence.
Same goes for unrestrained capitalism. At some point the wealthy hoarders, given absolute free reign, will have to resort to forcefully defending their walled-in existence from the starving masses.
If A did not cause B to be hungry why should A be compelled to feed B?
If need is a sufficient criterion to demand satisfaction, why bother to work? Just demand what you need from someone who has what you need.
ruveyn
You still seem to be under the impression that pure capitalistic society is a meritocracy. The flawed assumption is that those who don't have access to the resources to survive are simply not working hard enough. In reality they may be ripped off by the owner class that doesn't produce anything but simply uses it's ownership status to lord over the peasent masses. In this case the owner class either needs government to physically defend it's existence or to have it's own means of defense.
In any case the societal notion that property is an absolute right breaks down at some point. Without keeping the peasents illiterate and doped on religion, there's nothing to stop the peasants from waking up to the injustice of the aristocracy.
03 Jul 2011, 12:35 pm
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think there's something we often forget - that I get reminded my NT's often. We're used to having lives that are struggles, we have to fight valiantly as aspies/autistics to even keep our heads above water, so when we see other people struggling we tend to think they're people trying as hard as we are and are getting buckled under by society's demands towering over their own functionality. To a degree there's some of that, but not nearly as much as what we'd intuit.
Try to imagine yourself at, say three or four years old before this all came down on you or before you had a worry in the world aside from who might have been hording your toys or whether or not Dairy Queen was happening after dinner.... then imagine, I'd have to say a pretty big and damaging minority of NT's (who other NT's can see as clear of even clearer than we can), who's lives have tested them about as much that they're still in that psychological space. I've met full-on professionals with the introspect of grade schoolers, often. Needless to say, it doesn't do a lot for the level of reality that they carry with them either through life or to the voting machine.
Try to imagine yourself at, say three or four years old before this all came down on you or before you had a worry in the world aside from who might have been hording your toys or whether or not Dairy Queen was happening after dinner.... then imagine, I'd have to say a pretty big and damaging minority of NT's (who other NT's can see as clear of even clearer than we can), who's lives have tested them about as much that they're still in that psychological space. I've met full-on professionals with the introspect of grade schoolers, often. Needless to say, it doesn't do a lot for the level of reality that they carry with them either through life or to the voting machine.
I don't know if I trust anyone's judgement. There are clearly a lot of people in this world who would say the same of you and me. That people with a mental illness like depression or some kind of neurological impairment are merely spoiled / not trying hard enough / suffering from "learned helplessness" etc...
It's seems the difference is "psychologically healthy" NT's can just kind of shut their brains off and compartmentalize problems, which allows them to seemingly exist "on the edge" indefinitely without constantly wanting to shoot themselves in the head.
Sweetleaf
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Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,470
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
03 Jul 2011, 12:56 pm
marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Communism can only be applied through force. People are only altruistic and collectivist when it suits their personal interests. We've moved beyond small subsistence existence.
Same goes for unrestrained capitalism. At some point the wealthy hoarders, given absolute free reign, will have to resort to forcefully defending their walled-in existence from the starving masses.
If A did not cause B to be hungry why should A be compelled to feed B?
If need is a sufficient criterion to demand satisfaction, why bother to work? Just demand what you need from someone who has what you need.
ruveyn
You still seem to be under the impression that pure capitalistic society is a meritocracy. The flawed assumption is that those who don't have access to the resources to survive are simply not working hard enough. In reality they may be ripped off by the owner class that doesn't produce anything but simply uses it's ownership status to lord over the peasent masses. In this case the owner class either needs government to physically defend it's existence or to have it's own means of defense.
In any case the societal notion that property is an absolute right breaks down at some point. Without keeping the peasents illiterate and doped on religion, there's nothing to stop the peasants from waking up to the injustice of the aristocracy.
and now that people are waking up(maybe I am being too optimistic) what are they going to do about it? probably run away or hide while the whole world goes to sh*t. a little extreme but it would not suprise me of that is exactly what happens.
Sweetleaf
Veteran
Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,470
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
03 Jul 2011, 12:58 pm
marshall wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think there's something we often forget - that I get reminded my NT's often. We're used to having lives that are struggles, we have to fight valiantly as aspies/autistics to even keep our heads above water, so when we see other people struggling we tend to think they're people trying as hard as we are and are getting buckled under by society's demands towering over their own functionality. To a degree there's some of that, but not nearly as much as what we'd intuit.
Try to imagine yourself at, say three or four years old before this all came down on you or before you had a worry in the world aside from who might have been hording your toys or whether or not Dairy Queen was happening after dinner.... then imagine, I'd have to say a pretty big and damaging minority of NT's (who other NT's can see as clear of even clearer than we can), who's lives have tested them about as much that they're still in that psychological space. I've met full-on professionals with the introspect of grade schoolers, often. Needless to say, it doesn't do a lot for the level of reality that they carry with them either through life or to the voting machine.
Try to imagine yourself at, say three or four years old before this all came down on you or before you had a worry in the world aside from who might have been hording your toys or whether or not Dairy Queen was happening after dinner.... then imagine, I'd have to say a pretty big and damaging minority of NT's (who other NT's can see as clear of even clearer than we can), who's lives have tested them about as much that they're still in that psychological space. I've met full-on professionals with the introspect of grade schoolers, often. Needless to say, it doesn't do a lot for the level of reality that they carry with them either through life or to the voting machine.
I don't know if I trust anyone's judgement. There are clearly a lot of people in this world who would say the same of you and me. That people with a mental illness like depression or some kind of neurological impairment are merely spoiled / not trying hard enough / suffering from "learned helplessness" etc...
It's seems the difference is "psychologically healthy" NT's can just kind of shut their brains off and compartmentalize problems, which allows them to seemingly exist "on the edge" indefinitely without constantly wanting to shoot themselves in the head.
Yeah sometimes I have to wonder how people who are just going on with it all seem to enjoy their lives...when I am sitting there wondering why I havn't just offed myself yet. I know that does not make me look good or anything but when you know everything is going wrong and feel helpless to do anything its a difficult thought to avoid.
03 Jul 2011, 1:05 pm
Sweetleaf wrote:
marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Communism can only be applied through force. People are only altruistic and collectivist when it suits their personal interests. We've moved beyond small subsistence existence.
Same goes for unrestrained capitalism. At some point the wealthy hoarders, given absolute free reign, will have to resort to forcefully defending their walled-in existence from the starving masses.
If A did not cause B to be hungry why should A be compelled to feed B?
If need is a sufficient criterion to demand satisfaction, why bother to work? Just demand what you need from someone who has what you need.
ruveyn
You still seem to be under the impression that pure capitalistic society is a meritocracy. The flawed assumption is that those who don't have access to the resources to survive are simply not working hard enough. In reality they may be ripped off by the owner class that doesn't produce anything but simply uses it's ownership status to lord over the peasent masses. In this case the owner class either needs government to physically defend it's existence or to have it's own means of defense.
In any case the societal notion that property is an absolute right breaks down at some point. Without keeping the peasents illiterate and doped on religion, there's nothing to stop the peasants from waking up to the injustice of the aristocracy.
and now that people are waking up(maybe I am being too optimistic) what are they going to do about it? probably run away or hide while the whole world goes to sh*t. a little extreme but it would not suprise me of that is exactly what happens.
I don't think we're quite at that point now. Just pointing out that this does describe how things were in the past and it often took violence to correct the problem. Reveyn's desire to turn the clock back is disturbing.
Sweetleaf
Veteran
Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,470
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
03 Jul 2011, 1:29 pm
marshall wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Communism can only be applied through force. People are only altruistic and collectivist when it suits their personal interests. We've moved beyond small subsistence existence.
Same goes for unrestrained capitalism. At some point the wealthy hoarders, given absolute free reign, will have to resort to forcefully defending their walled-in existence from the starving masses.
If A did not cause B to be hungry why should A be compelled to feed B?
If need is a sufficient criterion to demand satisfaction, why bother to work? Just demand what you need from someone who has what you need.
ruveyn
You still seem to be under the impression that pure capitalistic society is a meritocracy. The flawed assumption is that those who don't have access to the resources to survive are simply not working hard enough. In reality they may be ripped off by the owner class that doesn't produce anything but simply uses it's ownership status to lord over the peasent masses. In this case the owner class either needs government to physically defend it's existence or to have it's own means of defense.
In any case the societal notion that property is an absolute right breaks down at some point. Without keeping the peasents illiterate and doped on religion, there's nothing to stop the peasants from waking up to the injustice of the aristocracy.
and now that people are waking up(maybe I am being too optimistic) what are they going to do about it? probably run away or hide while the whole world goes to sh*t. a little extreme but it would not suprise me of that is exactly what happens.
I don't think we're quite at that point now. Just pointing out that this does describe how things were in the past and it often took violence to correct the problem. Reveyn's desire to turn the clock back is disturbing.
What do you think it will take exactly this time around? I think as little violence as possible should be used....but chances are it will come down to that. I mean is 1% of the population really going to give up their power because they are asked nicely to? just throwing this out there, I mean in history when things become this way it does not stay that way for long because everyone gets fed up with the BS and history repeats itself in a sense.
03 Jul 2011, 3:10 pm
I tend to read articles online and get stymied by the hate posted in comments. People don't tend to back up their viewpoint with facts, just opinion. Not that opinions aren't valuable to an individual, they just lack merit in debates. "Because I said so" and "Yer awl dumb" really doesn't make me want to agree with anyone.
That said - All parties that I've seen do this. People have the capacity to be complete idiots regardless of affiliation. I think both parties have merit in their arguments. The main disagreements seem to stem from ideological differences. These differences are unlikely to be changed by mere debate. However, some level of compromise can be met by recognizing the issues most important to each party. Well, sort of.
I will not budge on womens reproductive rights, for instance, but am willing to find ways to give men more reproductive rights. I will not ever support a motion restricting the rights of another based on religion, but I will work to protect religion from anyone who would seek to destroy it. Meh... I'm tired and done now.
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