Men and Women have a balance of problems

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haha, I love this! i really do. I don't know why, but it feels so true to me.

That's a bit on the alarmist side, to be candid. Nobody can deny that by and large that with women, being the more physically frail sex, along with being the sex that is far more objectified in popular culture, they definitely a much greater risk of being beaten, raped, molested, etc, no doubt, especially in big cities notorious for crimes of that nature, but to say they can't walk home alone, when millions of women in the US (and billions elsewhere) refute that point on a daily, weekly, monthly, annual, etc, basis? Come on, be real. Crime may be a big problem in the US, but a minority of the population commit violent crimes, and so too does a minority of the population suffer violent crimes. In fact, not only that, but according to the Center for Economic and Policy Research , well over half of the US Prison population consists of nonviolent offenders, with 25% of the prison population being made up of nonviolent drug users (Cited at Reason.com. Source: http://reason.com/archives/2011/06/08/prison-math). So not only are criminals and victims of crimes a minority of the total population, but if this study is accurate, they don't even make up the majority of prisoners. The conclusions you are drawing, then, while they stem from a real concern (The prevalence of crime and the exploitation and dehumanization of women by criminals.) is therefore unwarranted, in my view.

By the way, Hale, can't think of anything right off hand to contribute, but props for making a reasonable, fair handed thread on this issue. It gets tiresome and frankly pitiful to see both men and women sit around and bicker about who has it worse because "We get kicked in the balls" or "We have to bear children and get periods" or whatever. It's a bunch of petty B.S which got old about the first second it popped up on this board. No doubt that men and women both face some unique obstacles in their lives as men and women, some of which are of course worse than what the other sex has to put up with, but by and large the challenges HUMANS face often overlap and are equally trying, sad and tragic, regardless of whether the person facing them has a male or female anatomy.

To list a few examples: Males who have interests that are thought of as "Girly" or unmasculine are bullied in adolescence, sometimes to the point of suicide and the problem has become such that our president has said it needs to stop, while girls who stray too far from traditional girl interests are often ostracized, mocked and deemed outcasts, which sometimes can hurt just as as any fist to the face. Girls who develop an interest in sex and men and who go out and seek romance with their peers are routinely called sluts and whores, while guys who are curious and interested either A) Are too shy (That was me. So many missed opportunities...), B) Waiting for the "Right one" or C) Who are just plained turned down, are put down for being virgins who don't have a "hot babe" hanging off their arms. In adulthood and in adolescence, women are often marginalized when they don't have the looks that society deems hot (Which is, in my view, vastly overrated), while men who don't fit certain standards are deemed "Losers".


Anyways, I think I've made my point; some would say I've overmade it (I have a tendency to ramble, what can I say), so I'll just ride off into the sunset and let other people with contributions to make, make theirs.

Last edited by Jordan87 on 07 Jul 2011, 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kiran said walking alone at night, not walking alone. I think you feel Kiran's claim is unwarranted because you are not the stakeholder here. In other words, they are not threats that apply to you and that you have to face, anywhere near as much as women do so you are not familiar with the precautions women must take to avoid them.

A little glimps into the secret lives of women:

Most women will not walk home alone late at night and consider the act of having to walk to their car in an isolated area at night, one of great danger. Most women, when faced with the task of walking any distance in any situation in which they are isolated, will do so quickly. She will usually make sure she has something she can use as a weapon in case she has to and will usually be aware of places where someone might be hiding. When two strange women happen upon each other while walking in an isolated area, especially at night, they will usually group together. Most women will not hike alone or camp alone. If you do happen upon a woman alone on a trail, it's usually either a fairly well traveled trail during a busy time of day, or she has her dog with her. Women who camp alone usually have guns with them.

It's not that men are never in any danger. I think most victims of robberies at night are probably men, but this is probably because men are more likely to go out walking at night and to isolated places by themselves more. But a woman who does is not just going to attract robbers looking for an easy target, she's going to attract intentional and opportunistic rapists as well.

Homeless women are 10 times more likely to be assaulted in some manner than homeless men.

The only place a man is far more likely to be sexually assaulted than a woman is in prison.

Very well-said, Chronos.

It always amazes me when men try to downplay the physical risks that women face every day. Yes, I understand very well that only one man in a million is a psychopathic rapist, but how many does it take? And you have no way of knowing if that one happens to be the guy walking behind you on the street, or the guy who was staring at you at the mall, or the very normal-appearing banker who lives down the street. And of course it's not just the psychopathic rapists we have to be concerned with. I've forgotten the actual statistics, but an astounding percentage of women have been hit or beaten by their boyfriends/husbands.

But back to the original thread ... I think most of the things that people have said are true, but I also think they are not inescapable laws of the universe. I think the process of maturation and growing up involves, among other things, throwing off unnecessary restrictions we've felt during our lives, wherever they happen to have come from. That includes the restrictions imposed by societal norms, if they make no sense and if they hamper our personal development.

All of us--men and women both--are in this together. Anything that restricts one gender impacts the other. If a man is treated as a "success object" by women, that's no different from me being treated as a "sex object". It's just as demeaning and just as counter-productive, in my opinion.

I'm 46 years old. I've been around the block a few times. I ask myself what the hell good does it do to act coy and shy and wait for a man to approach me or ask me out? Who wins in that situation, if he is hesitant because he thinks I'm "already taken" or that I won't respond positively to him? Well, the answer is ... neither of us win, and we both lose.

I think I'm rambling here, but the point I wanted to make is that the restrictions--other than the physical ones--that people have been pointing out are artificial and we don't have to put up with them if we don't want to.

That is not completely true of all women.

I know that I've run at midnight around my neighborhood without a phone before.

That being said, more girls should learn self-defense and be prepared.

The only reason I am so confident is because I can run away if the situation needs, (or I'm a great hider/climber/screamer).

[Quote=Chronos]Kiran said walking alone at night, not walking alone. I think you feel Kiran's claim is unwarranted because you are not the stakeholder here. In other words, they are not threats that apply to you and that you have to face, anywhere near as much as women do so you are not familiar with the precautions women must take to avoid them.[/Quote]

Well, I said walking alone, I'll grant you that, but when I said that, I was referring specifically to what she said even though I didn't add "at night" (I just assumed that even though I didn't add that part, people would be able to see what I was referring to when I said "Walking home" with relative ease.). Obviously, in cities like New York, Boston and Seattle, it's common sense to assume that the majority of crimes aren't going to occur in daylight when you have many potential witnesses, when people could easily hear the screams of a woman being raped or mugged, and people are, by and large, more alert. As for me not being a stakeholder, as you put it, in this conversation, people regularly discuss things about which they are not stakeholders all the time, but nobody (Normally) assumes that in discussing the problem at hand or the affected parties, they are downplaying the significance of that issue or the people involved due to some sort of unconscious bias or lack of experience. That aspect of your post is nothing but a polite ad hominem, in my view, in that you're trying to nullify my argument by directing your energies towards me; arguing about my "Biases" or my lack of experience, assuming that those must be the cause of my viewpoints, as opposed to my ability to reason abstractly and come to a opinion via that methodology.

Further, I never said outright that women don't have to worry about being assailed in some way at night, and I would defy you to find any aspect of my post that claimed that and cite it word for word. What I addressed was the claim that women as a group cannot walk home alone at night. I'm perfectly fine with saying that in situations where individuals may be prone to violence, such as walking home at night, women are decidedly more at risk, but to say that women can't walk home at night, which IS what Kiran said, in my view, is silly. And to say that women as a group are at constant risk is only slightly more reasonable than saying men are at constant risk, simply because statistics bear that out. But it does not make it non-alarmist or unexaggerated to generalize to the extreme and say all or most women are "threatened" or all or most women can't walk home at night.


One final note before I move on: I encourage you to look through my posts. I've talked about gender and gender identity before and I'll reiterate what I've said before in here: Gender is nothing more than a social construct to me and I've very little concern about conforming to the standards set for me in order to be considered a man or manly. Therefore, I have very little concern in "Batting" for my "Team".

[Quote=Chronos]A little glimps into the secret lives of women:

Most women will not walk home alone late at night and consider the act of having to walk to their car in an isolated area at night, one of great danger. Most women, when faced with the task of walking any distance in any situation in which they are isolated, will do so quickly. She will usually make sure she has something she can use as a weapon in case she has to and will usually be aware of places where someone might be hiding. When two strange women happen upon each other while walking in an isolated area, especially at night, they will usually group together. Most women will not hike alone or camp alone. If you do happen upon a woman alone on a trail, it's usually either a fairly well traveled trail during a busy time of day, or she has her dog with her. Women who camp alone usually have guns with them.[/Quote]

Of course they will. Again, I never claimed that in situations where people are prone to being victimized, such as walking alone at night, women are not more at risk. They are, and as such, it's understandable many ("Most" is not an appropriate term in the face of zero evidence being provided for that claim.) women would feel inclined to take the appropriate cautions to make sure that they can be safe and not become a "statistic", as it were. But again, to generalize to the extreme extent Kiran did and say women are constantly threatened, which the statistics I've cited do not bear out, or to say women can't walk home alone at night, which again, she said, is a position I can't support or regard as reasonable or fair handed. I don't have any problem with her or you, and I hope this doesn't cause any animosity, as discussions involving gender and gender differences often do instill in people on both sides of the issue, but I'm not going to back off of my viewpoint here, because I don't feel as if I'm in the wrong for saying what I am saying. Of course, I'm more than willing to be proven wrong if you desire to continue the debate via PM (Since we don't want to railroad this thread any more.). If there's one thing I'll pat myself on the back for, it's that I don't try and be a dogmatist in the face of evidence contrary to my views (although I am only human.).

[Quote=Chronos]It's not that men are never in any danger. I think most victims of robberies at night are probably men, but this is probably because men are more likely to go out walking at night and to isolated places by themselves more. But a woman who does is not just going to attract robbers looking for an easy target, she's going to attract intentional and opportunistic rapists as well.[/Quote]

I never claimed that Kiran said that men are never at risk. That's either a gross misunderstanding of what I've been saying, you assuming that I assumed that Kiran thought that men are never at any risk, or simply a strawman within a strawman. As for women attracting more robbers, rapists, etc, I never disputed that.

[Quote=Chronos]Homeless women are 10 times more likely to be assaulted in some manner than homeless men.[/Quote]

No arguments with that, as it seems a reasonable statement.

[Quote=Chronos]The only place a man is far more likely to be sexually assaulted than a woman is in prison.[/quote]

See my response above.

Last edited by Jordan87 on 07 Jul 2011, 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Seconded! I walk alone at night all the time, but mostly because I'd attack right back if someone attacked me. And I also know how to blend into the darkness, so if I see people I just become less conspicuous.


All that aside:
Men -
-Have a harder time gaining parental rights
-Are more likely to suffer emotional abuse by their partner in silence (I can link to a study)
-Are more likely to die from violence.
-Aren't supposed to be emotional, even if they're naturally sympathetic and kind
-Are expected to pay for things for their partner(which is lame >_>)
-Have fewer people fighting for their rights
-Get/Have to be drafted


Women-
-Are disproportionately responsible for family life
-Are more likely to suffer violent physical abuse from a partner
-Are more likely to be raped or assaulted
-Aren't encouraged to develop emotional control (which is really vital to happiness, I think)
-Aren't allowed to pay for their partner.
-Are frequently told they're less intelligent, and should stay at home so 'men can get jobs again'
-Are paid less than men, still, even accounting for education and years in the workforce.
-Aren't allowed to sign up for the draft even if they want to >_>

I hate that women aren't supposed to pay for their mate when out on the town. I figure, whoever has the money can pay if they want, or its split evenly. But it should NEVER be based on gender. Its incredibly backward to expect equal rights then demand that a man pay. And I want to sign up for the draft! D: I want to be subject to all the perils that my loved ones are...

oh well, looks like life sucks for all of us :3