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Scaramouche
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28 Aug 2006, 9:16 pm

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The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them. The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity.
Forbes 7/12/06

Quote:
The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. "Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said. "The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place," it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Hindustan Times 7/12/06

Quote:
The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were arrested as they entered the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut. Bahrain News Agency 7/12/06

Quote:
TRANSLATION: According to the Lebanese police force, the two soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of A�ta Al-Chaab close to the border, whereas Israeli television indicated that they had been captured in Israeli territory. fr.news.yahoo 7/12/06

Image

Quote:
In the afternoon, the scene changed in the streets of southern Lebanon, which was the target of 32 Israeli raids that mainly targeted areas near the area where the two soldiers were captured in Aita al Chaab, close to the border with Israel. news.monstersandcritics.com 7/12/06

Quote:
According to the Lebanese police force, the two Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of A�ta Al-Chaab, near to the border with Israel, where an Israeli unit had penetrated in middle of morning. AFP 7/12/06

Quote:
The militant group Hezbollah said it captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes across the border in southern Lebanon on Wednesday. chinabroadcast 7/12/06

Quote:
It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory. Asia Times  7/15/06

Quote:
TRANSLATION: Hezbollah has made it clear time and again that it would retaliate by capturing and detaining Israeli soldiers if they entered Lebanon and use them in an exchange of prisoners. Israel has in a deliberate manner sent a commando into Lebanon (A�ta Al Chaab) They came under attack from Hezbollah, who captured two of their soldiers. voltairenet.org 7/18/06

Quote:
Only weeks ago, an entire reserve division was drafted in order to train for an operation such as the one the IDF is planning in response to Wednesday morning's Hizbullah attacks on IDF forces along the northern border. JPost 7/12/06

Quote:
Israel's military response by air, land and sea to what it considered a provocation last week by Hezbollah militants is unfolding according to a plan finalized more than a year ago.In the years since Israel ended its military occupation of southern Lebanon, it watched warily as Hezbollah built up its military presence in the region. When Hezbollah militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers last week, the Israeli military was ready to react almost instantly. SFGate 7/21/06

The United Nations map shows Shebaa clearly within Lebanon. (PDF file.)

The residents say they are Lebanese.

The frams region is in territory disputed by Syria and Lebanon.  But note that for Israelis to even get there, they must pass through either Lebanese or Syrian territory, as it is not at all conencted to Israel.

The IDF started it all by capturing some Lebanese guys in Lebanon

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Other prisoners of Israel

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McJeff
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29 Aug 2006, 9:32 am

Arab Times? Bahrain News Agency? whatreallyhappend.com?

Are you even trying anymore?



psych
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29 Aug 2006, 11:43 am

McJeff wrote:
Arab Times? Bahrain News Agency? whatreallyhappend.com?

Are you even trying anymore?


are you?
why not try critizing the content, rather than the source?



McJeff
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29 Aug 2006, 1:16 pm

Because half of the websites he linked have been proven in the past to have not just anti-Israel bias, but anti-Israel policy?

Because most of the sites he linked aren't actually where he's getting these statements?

Because half of the articles he links are various sources takes on a single incident?

Because all the articles devolve into he-said she-said?

Because most of them take the statements of usually one person and cite it as fact... when they bother citing facts at all. Most of them just make statements with no justification or backup.

Should I go on?



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29 Aug 2006, 1:37 pm

The arabs provoke Israel to attack them. Then, they play victims, and a lot of people in Europe and some in America actually believe them.



psych
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29 Aug 2006, 1:55 pm

ok then, heres something you may find interesting - interview with Hezbollahs leader, thats about as closely sourced as you can get.

http://www.counterpunch.org/nasrallah08172006.html

completely unrelated, but i found this via the links above and hadnt seen it before;

Saddam Hussein's letter to the American people

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24800



psych
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29 Aug 2006, 2:07 pm

Litigious wrote:
The arabs provoke Israel to attack them. Then, they play victims, and a lot of people in Europe and some in America actually believe them.


I think its a little bit more complicated than that!



McJeff
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29 Aug 2006, 5:02 pm

Interview with Nasrallah wrote:
Editors' Note: The authenticity of this interview has been challenged, maybe because Nasrallah doesn't speak entirely according to Orientalist expectations of what a Shi'a leader should be saying. CounterPunch has confirmed that the interview did appear in the Turkish socialist daily Evrensel on August 12 and 13, provoking comment in the Turkish corporate press because Nasrallah expressed his admiration for the 1960's generation of revolutionaries like Deniz Gezmis.


Aside from the fact that the leader of a terrorist organization is as close to a worthless source as you can get.



Scaramouche
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29 Aug 2006, 7:17 pm

McJeff wrote:
Arab Times? Bahrain News Agency? whatreallyhappend.com?

Are you even trying anymore?


Forbes, Yahoo, AFP, Asia Times, Jerusalem Post, SFGate, The Guardian, Amnesty International...



Scaramouche
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29 Aug 2006, 7:19 pm

McJeff wrote:

Aside from the fact that the leader of a terrorist organization is as close to a worthless source as you can get.

Hezbollah is a resistance movement, created to resists the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon which began in 1982. If the USA and Israel call them terrorists, that doesn't make it a fact. It's merely more sloganerring BS from two of the most aggressive nations on the planet.



psych
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29 Aug 2006, 7:29 pm

McJeff wrote:
Aside from the fact that the leader of a terrorist organization is as close to a worthless source as you can get.


According to a BBC analysis "the party today is a well-structured political organisation with members of parliament"
(from wikipedia)

'terrorist' used in this context is about as worthless a label as you can get.



McJeff
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29 Aug 2006, 8:38 pm

Here we go again. When will you terrorist lovers learn?

Quote:
Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization.


Israel's occupation of Lebanon began when Lebanon was hosting Palestinian terrorists. Israel withdrew from Lebanon due to UN pressure, and Hezbollah was one of many groups that formed in the void.

Hezbollah's original aim was to install a Shi'ite theocracy in Lebanon. It abandoned this for participation in parlimentary government, and once in the parliment, used terror tactics to push its agenda.

Civilian kidnappings, suicide bombings, aircraft hijackings, firing rockets loaded with ball bearings into civilians, deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure... building military infrastructure in civilian areas...

Quote:
Israel kidnaps civilians...


The thing about Hezbollah is that it is not a state, it is a political entity. It does not have an "army", it has a militia. Hezbo militia members are not only indistinguishable from civilians to an outside oberver, Hezbollah itself makes no attempt to distinguish. Why? Because they can claim dead militants as civilian deaths.

So, as was stated, there is no difference between the Hezbollah militia, and the civilians. If Hezbollah refuses to identify themselves and continues to allow Lebanese citizens to get "kidnapped" (read: arrested along with the terrorists because there's no visible difference), then the fault is with Hezbollah rather than Israel.

Liberal Fallacy: Hezbollah's attacks on Israel are justified as it is a legitimate resistance movement.

If, in fact, Hezbollah is legitimate, that means that Hezbollah is a legitimate target. The BEST argument you could make here that would even begin to hold water, is that both sides are morally bankrupt and reprehensible.

Re: Military infrastructure in civilian areas.

Hezbollah does not have the strength to fight Israel directly. Hezbollah's victory in the early 80s was due to their invention of modern terrorism (or their "innovative new ideas about guerilla warfare" if you're a sympathizer), something that had never been seen before and that Israel and the US were unprepared to deal with. Since then, Hezbollah has had few weapons to resort to, aside from propaganda.

This is where building military installations in civilian areas comes in.

Israel cannot fight Hezbollah without hitting these military installations, but due to the location of them, civilian deaths are inevitable and unavoidable. Hezbollah then exploits these deaths for all that they're worth, drumming up support from socialists in Europe and the US, who then call for Israel to quit it.

And this propaganda is an effective weapon. Israel crushed Hezbollah in the recent war militarily. Hezbollah's propaganda turned international opinion against them, forcing an early pull out.

But don't take my word for it - take the words of the people who've managed to put together photographic evidence that Hezbollah stages all their footage, the foreign journalists who've been menaced and had their footage stolen from them when they dared film things that didn't portray Hezbollah in a positive light.

I leave you with this.

Hezbollah is the world's most dangerous terrorist agency because they've been able to build themselves a shield of legit-ness. While Hamas and Al Qaeda are considered terrorist organizations universally, Hezbollah has been able to pull the wool over the eyes of a disturbing number of nations and people.



Scaramouche
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30 Aug 2006, 7:57 am

McJeff wrote:
Here we go again. When will you terrorist lovers learn?

Why do the pro-war, right-wing folks always assume that those who deal with facts must love terrorists?

Quote:
Israel's occupation of Lebanon began when Lebanon was hosting Palestinian terrorists.

That was one of the excuses they gave, yes.

Quote:
Israel withdrew from Lebanon due to UN pressure, and Hezbollah was one of many groups that formed in the void.

Completely incorrect. Hezbollah formed while Israel still occupied southern Lebanon. Hezbollah formed as a resistance against that occupation.

Quote:
Hezbollah's original aim was to install a Shi'ite theocracy in Lebanon.

Completely incorrect. Hezbollah's original aim was the resist the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon.

Quote:
It abandoned this for participation in parlimentary government, and once in the parliment, used terror tactics to push its agenda.

Completely incorrect. Hezbollah remains the primary defence force for southern Lebanon.

Quote:
Civilian kidnappings, suicide bombings, aircraft hijackings, firing rockets loaded with ball bearings into civilians, deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure... building military infrastructure in civilian areas...

Every activity you mentioned is performed by Israel. And far more than it is done by others in the region.

Quote:
The thing about Hezbollah is that it is not a state, it is a political entity.

Really? Wow...

Quote:
It does not have an "army", it has a militia.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/army?view=uk

Quote:
Hezbo militia members are not only indistinguishable from civilians to an outside oberver, Hezbollah itself makes no attempt to distinguish. Why? Because they can claim dead militants as civilian deaths.

You're such a nice person, attempting to pretend that the thousand+ civilians killed by Israel were really Hezbollah militants. Does that include the women and children?

The fact is, like any resistance movement, they must hide their identities. Just like the French resistance in WW2.

Quote:
So, as was stated, there is no difference between the Hezbollah militia, and the civilians.

Except that some are militants, and some are innocent civilians.

Quote:
If Hezbollah refuses to identify themselves and continues to allow Lebanese citizens to get "kidnapped" (read: arrested along with the terrorists because there's no visible difference), then the fault is with Hezbollah rather than Israel.

1. Should the French resistance have identified themselves in WW2?

2. Are the actions of the NAZIs the fault of the French resistance because the French resistance refused to identify themselves?

Quote:
Liberal Fallacy:

Idiotic fallacy: you assume this is based in the USA's liberal/right-wingnut dichotomy.

Quote:
Hezbollah's attacks on Israel are justified as it is a legitimate resistance movement.

Read up on the history of Hezbollah.

Quote:
If, in fact, Hezbollah is legitimate, that means that Hezbollah is a legitimate target. The BEST argument you could make here that would even begin to hold water, is that both sides are morally bankrupt and reprehensible.

Was the French resistance legitimate? Were they a legitimate target?

Quote:
Hezbollah does not have the strength to fight Israel directly. Hezbollah's victory in the early 80s was due to their invention of modern terrorism (or their "innovative new ideas about guerilla warfare" if you're a sympathizer), something that had never been seen before and that Israel and the US were unprepared to deal with. Since then, Hezbollah has had few weapons to resort to, aside from propaganda.

This is where building military installations in civilian areas comes in.

Once again, Israel admitted there was no Hezbollah presence at Qana. Yet they bombed that apartment building anyway.

Quote:
Israel cannot fight Hezbollah without hitting these military installations, but due to the location of them, civilian deaths are inevitable and unavoidable. Hezbollah then exploits these deaths for all that they're worth, drumming up support from socialists in Europe and the US, who then call for Israel to quit it.

Idiotic fallacy: Israel aimed at Hezbollah and accidentally hit a few civilians. Fact: the vast majority of Israel's victims were innocent civilians. Any hezbollah targets destroyed were mere accidents, nothing but collateral damage, during a campaign against civilians.

Quote:
And this propaganda is an effective weapon. Israel crushed Hezbollah in the recent war militarily. Hezbollah's propaganda turned international opinion against them, forcing an early pull out.

Israel crushed Hezbollah? You mean how Israel spent about US$2 billion and managed to kill 50 Hezbollah fighters, and a thousand civilians?

Quote:
But don't take my word for it - take the words of the people who've managed to put together photographic evidence that Hezbollah stages all their footage, the foreign journalists who've been menaced and had their footage stolen from them when they dared film things that didn't portray Hezbollah in a positive light.

I notice your complete lack of support for those assertions.

Quote:
Hezbollah is the world's most dangerous terrorist agency because they've been able to build themselves a shield of legit-ness.

The word is "legitimacy".

Quote:
While Hamas and Al Qaeda are considered terrorist organizations universally, Hezbollah has been able to pull the wool over the eyes of a disturbing number of nations and people.

Incorrect, again. Hamas is considered a resistance organisation in many places. Heck, you should keep in mind that Israel itself is not recognised as a state by many nations, and is considered a terrorist organisation by many.



frawley27
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01 Sep 2006, 12:30 am

I was wondering if the person from "the right" can fill me in on how Israel was created, wasn't the Jews back then called terrorists by the West. Isn't it funny how it has turned full circle. But I understand that the Jews back then wanted a homeland of their own after the holocaust and regarded Jerusalem as their's. But when Israel was formed, many Palestinians died or quickly became unemployed and refugees living in poverty. Is that acceptable. It would be interesting to find out how many Palestinians died for the creation of Israel but does that mean the Jews were terrorists. I don't think so but it's interesting to realise there are 2 sides to every story.

The Jews suffered horrifically in WW2 due to Hitler cleverly mastering how to feed hate and ignorance in always blaming the Jews for every evil, some Arabs still do this today and it is completely unacceptable. But Israel does the same thing too. An Arab blows up an Israeli bus, kills 8 people, correctly is labelled an act of terrorism, but when an Israeli missle strike kills 8 civilians they just say they were targeting militants and that the civilians got in the way and they regretted the mistake. Yet this happens far too often and smells of hyprocrisy.

I do agree that Hezbollah are far from saints and their actions in abducting the 2 Israeli soldiers was stupid as it resulted in Lebanon being turned into a war zone (regardless of whether you agreed with Israel's response, they gave Israel a perceived justification for their actions).



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08 Sep 2006, 3:10 am

There's nothing quite like an anti-semitist lunatic. They start off sounding reasonable, even knowledgable, but knock their statements apart with a few well placed facts and they lose any semblance of intelligence.

I'm only going to address those comments that you've managed to rebut with something other than "NO U!"

Quote:
Why do the pro-war, right-wing folks always assume that those who deal with facts must love terrorists?


Um... probably because you do. You cheerlead for Hezbollah and Hamas (both undisputably terrorist because they both call for the complete destruction of a nation), ergo, you love terrorists.

Quote:
Every activity [suicide bombing, aircraft hijacking, etc...] you mentioned is performed by Israel. And far more than it is done by others in the region.


Ludicrous. You've just lost what little credibility you retained.

Quote:
Idiotic fallacy: Israel aimed at Hezbollah and accidentally hit a few civilians. Fact: the vast majority of Israel's victims were innocent civilians. Any hezbollah targets destroyed were mere accidents, nothing but collateral damage, during a campaign against civilians.


This is just... so stupid on so many levels.

Lets start with the most obvious fallacy - if the campaign was against civilians, then why didn't Israel just carpet-bomb Lebanon, killing everyone, militant or civilian, that they could?

Furthermore, even if it WAS a campaign against civilians, it would have been stupid and incompetent of the IDF to fail to target military structure, thereby giving them a chance to fight back.

Those are just the two most obvious rebuttals of that completely insane statement you came up with... but feel free to try again.

Quote:
If Hezbollah refuses to identify themselves and continues to allow Lebanese citizens to get "kidnapped" (read: arrested along with the terrorists because there's no visible difference), then the fault is with Hezbollah rather than Israel.

1. Should the French resistance have identified themselves in WW2?

2. Are the actions of the NAZIs the fault of the French resistance because the French resistance refused to identify themselves?


You can nitpick all you want, but you're failing to address the fact that Hezbollah is taking a deliberate anti-civilian action in an attempt to milk their propaganda weapon for all its worth.

Furthermore, the French were defending an invading army. Hezbollah invaded a soverign nation. Completely different scenario.

Quote:
Heck, you should keep in mind that Israel itself is not recognised as a state by many nations, and is considered a terrorist organisation by many.


Only in rogue nations like Iran and Syria is this even remotely true.