blood THC/alcohol levels and driving impairment

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Koko23
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18 Jul 2011, 7:47 pm

I just watched a segment on Fox News where they were saying that impaired driving under the influence of medical marijuana is increasingly a problem (although as far as I can tell, there isn't a study backing this up, its just something they decided to assert and discuss today).

They seem to imply that an inherent problem with legalizing bud is that there is no fast and easy indicator of acute intoxication level as there is with alcohol (the breathalyzer), and THC levels remain elevated for prolonged periods in a users bloodstream (varying with metabolism and other factors) such that the presence of detectable levels THC metabolites in urine or blood does not necessarily indicate recent use or intoxication.

I just don't understand why people are so obsessed with setting an arbitrary cut-off for the legal amount of a drug that can be present in the body for driving or any other activity, when we know drugs affect different people in different ways, and there isn't a one-size-fits-all guideline for what is appropriate.

According to this website:
http://www.ou.edu/oupd/bac.htm

I can have 2 drinks and still be below the legal limit of alcohol... but as a matter of fact, I am highly impaired after just 1 drink, while most of my friends would be safer drivers with a 0.8 BAC than I would be with a 0.3 BAC.

Regarding pot, some people drive well high, even better than normal, and some people perhaps are impaired. To me, it makes more sense for suspicious cops to test motor skills and cognitive function to determine whether someone is impaired, and if they are found to be impaired, further investigation will shed light on why they are impaired, whether it is due to alcohol, THC, being elderly, or anything else. If the impairment cannot be blamed on any acute cause, then the person should have their license taken away because apparently they just naturally suck at driving. If the impairment can be blamed on something like THC or alcohol, then the person better stop doing that or should lose their license, because clearly that substance affects them negatively. But I don't understand the focus on setting arbitrary cut-offs for everyone if they aren't as relevant to keeping the road safe as measures of actual impairment.

To summarize, I think that demonstrating impairment should be all that is required to put someone's license in jeopardy, and whether they want to blame their impairment on a substance and undergo some sort of counseling program and probation period is up to them (the alternative would be to forsake your license).

Is this not sensible?



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18 Jul 2011, 8:36 pm

Yeah I kind of agree with that, imparment does vary.....you would think people could be responsible enough to figure out how these substances effect them before they go driving and not exceed their limit before driving. What I don't get is I do not think there are any specific laws against driving while under the influence of prescription meds and some of those are very impairing.

But i don't know if the laws are ever going to reflect the reality of the situation.



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18 Jul 2011, 9:50 pm

You can get arrested for failing the physical and mental tests even if you are under the legal limit. The legal limit was set based on the fact that most people's level impairment increases slowly between .00 and .07, between .08 and .10 it picks up noticeably, and the level of impairment typically shoots up rapidly after that. Driving under the influence of anything, including prescription meds, is illegal. Just like impairment from prescription meds ,the most reliable field test for driving while impaired for cannabis use will be the field sobriety test for now. Drivers impaired by cannabis use have been found in controlled, closed course experiments to keep their car in the lines better than someone who is drunk, but their reaction time is dangerously slow and their ability to think fast is for all practical purposes nonexistent.


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Koko23
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18 Jul 2011, 10:06 pm

John_Browning wrote:
You can get arrested for failing the physical and mental tests even if you are under the legal limit. The legal limit was set based on the fact that most people's level impairment increases slowly between .00 and .07, between .08 and .10 it picks up noticeably, and the level of impairment typically shoots up rapidly after that. Driving under the influence of anything, including prescription meds, is illegal. Just like impairment from prescription meds ,the most reliable field test for driving while impaired for cannabis use will be the field sobriety test for now. Drivers impaired by cannabis use have been found in controlled, closed course experiments to keep their car in the lines better than someone who is drunk, but their reaction time is dangerously slow and their ability to think fast is for all practical purposes nonexistent.


Drivers under the influence of THC also compensate by slowing down.



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18 Jul 2011, 10:14 pm

Koko23 wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
You can get arrested for failing the physical and mental tests even if you are under the legal limit. The legal limit was set based on the fact that most people's level impairment increases slowly between .00 and .07, between .08 and .10 it picks up noticeably, and the level of impairment typically shoots up rapidly after that. Driving under the influence of anything, including prescription meds, is illegal. Just like impairment from prescription meds ,the most reliable field test for driving while impaired for cannabis use will be the field sobriety test for now. Drivers impaired by cannabis use have been found in controlled, closed course experiments to keep their car in the lines better than someone who is drunk, but their reaction time is dangerously slow and their ability to think fast is for all practical purposes nonexistent.


Drivers under the influence of THC also compensate by slowing down.


Which can also make them a hazard, imagine someone going 40 mph when the speed limit is 75 mph.



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19 Jul 2011, 12:12 am

I have probaly the lowest alcohol tollerance on the planet...I get impaired with less than a full drink, but that is because I have seizures and alcohol can affect seizure activity. I learned to drive late. I am 34 and still dont have a driver's licence, but the never ending learners permit. I started learning when I was 30 bececause it took a long to time to prove that I am seizure free before being allowed to drive. However, I have this weird thing where I dont see stop signs right away and got into wreck because of it. Of course I have not driven since that wreck. I dont know why I dont see stop signs. It is just a mystery to me. Maybe I see them, but the signals to brain dont tell me that means I have to stop...I dunno. When I got into the wreck, I clearly did not remember seeing the stop sign. The bad part is it was 200 feet from my house. I knew that stop sign was there, but it never entered my mind that day.
Sometimes I think that I had a minor seizure...I dont know what happened. Either way, I dont really think I am fit to drive until I can figure out what happened and how to prevent it. I did go out that day before taking my morning seizure medicne, so maybe a minor seizure, a petite-mal, was what happened. If that is the case, then I just need to remember to take my medicne 30 minutes before driving.


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Inuyasha
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19 Jul 2011, 12:25 am

@ jojobean

No offense, but it sounds like you shouldn't be driving if you have a tendency to have seizure.



jojobean
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19 Jul 2011, 12:37 am

Inuyasha wrote:
@ jojobean

No offense, but it sounds like you shouldn't be driving if you have a tendency to have seizure.


thats why I am not driving untill I figure out if it was because of the fact that I may had a seizure because I did not take my medicine that day, or because I had a seizure regardless. But eitherway I have not driven since the wreck...and probably wont drive again. I hate to say it, but I may have to live in the city if something happens to my mom so I can can use public transportation.
I hate living in the city...it is so oppressive.


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19 Jul 2011, 2:01 am

Well, obviously the legal prohibitions will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. But there is no question that in Canada, any operation of a motor vehicle while the driver's ability is impaired by alcohol or a drug is criminal. It matters not whether the drug is legal, or illegal, recreational or therapeutic.


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19 Jul 2011, 5:23 am

As THC is known to mess up a person's ability to drive a car or fly a plane any person who has it in their body should be banned from driving if

1. The THC level is at least four times the standard deviation for the concentration measurement

and

2. The THC level is at least three times the background level of THC which is measured for a person who does not smoke weed.

I am basing my view on maths, I think that to find a person guilty we must be able to show beyond all reasonable doubt that they are guilty.


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19 Jul 2011, 7:33 pm

Woodpecker wrote:
As THC is known to mess up a person's ability to drive a car or fly a plane any person who has it in their body should be banned from driving if

1. The THC level is at least four times the standard deviation for the concentration measurement

and

2. The THC level is at least three times the background level of THC which is measured for a person who does not smoke weed.

I am basing my view on maths, I think that to find a person guilty we must be able to show beyond all reasonable doubt that they are guilty.


You do realise there is no real way to determine how recently someone has smoked weed by drug testing.....it can be traced up to 30 days after you smoke. So that would not really work, its not like alcohol where you can do a breathalizer or piss test which shows how intoxicated someone is. But there are pleanty of legal things that can not accuratly be tested for that way as well.



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20 Jul 2011, 12:23 pm

Koko23 wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
You can get arrested for failing the physical and mental tests even if you are under the legal limit. The legal limit was set based on the fact that most people's level impairment increases slowly between .00 and .07, between .08 and .10 it picks up noticeably, and the level of impairment typically shoots up rapidly after that. Driving under the influence of anything, including prescription meds, is illegal. Just like impairment from prescription meds ,the most reliable field test for driving while impaired for cannabis use will be the field sobriety test for now. Drivers impaired by cannabis use have been found in controlled, closed course experiments to keep their car in the lines better than someone who is drunk, but their reaction time is dangerously slow and their ability to think fast is for all practical purposes nonexistent.


Drivers under the influence of THC also compensate by slowing down.
...And?

Sweetleaf wrote:
Woodpecker wrote:
As THC is known to mess up a person's ability to drive a car or fly a plane any person who has it in their body should be banned from driving if

1. The THC level is at least four times the standard deviation for the concentration measurement

and

2. The THC level is at least three times the background level of THC which is measured for a person who does not smoke weed.

I am basing my view on maths, I think that to find a person guilty we must be able to show beyond all reasonable doubt that they are guilty.


You do realise there is no real way to determine how recently someone has smoked weed by drug testing.....it can be traced up to 30 days after you smoke. So that would not really work, its not like alcohol where you can do a breathalizer or piss test which shows how intoxicated someone is. But there are pleanty of legal things that can not accuratly be tested for that way as well.
That and there's this stupid myth that since THC takes a long time to get out of your system you are still stoned after the high wears off. It's BS because the THC turns into inactive metabolites once they go from your cannabinoid receptors into your fatty tissue.



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20 Jul 2011, 1:11 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Koko23 wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
You can get arrested for failing the physical and mental tests even if you are under the legal limit. The legal limit was set based on the fact that most people's level impairment increases slowly between .00 and .07, between .08 and .10 it picks up noticeably, and the level of impairment typically shoots up rapidly after that. Driving under the influence of anything, including prescription meds, is illegal. Just like impairment from prescription meds ,the most reliable field test for driving while impaired for cannabis use will be the field sobriety test for now. Drivers impaired by cannabis use have been found in controlled, closed course experiments to keep their car in the lines better than someone who is drunk, but their reaction time is dangerously slow and their ability to think fast is for all practical purposes nonexistent.


Drivers under the influence of THC also compensate by slowing down.
...And?

Sweetleaf wrote:
Woodpecker wrote:
As THC is known to mess up a person's ability to drive a car or fly a plane any person who has it in their body should be banned from driving if

1. The THC level is at least four times the standard deviation for the concentration measurement

and

2. The THC level is at least three times the background level of THC which is measured for a person who does not smoke weed.

I am basing my view on maths, I think that to find a person guilty we must be able to show beyond all reasonable doubt that they are guilty.


You do realise there is no real way to determine how recently someone has smoked weed by drug testing.....it can be traced up to 30 days after you smoke. So that would not really work, its not like alcohol where you can do a breathalizer or piss test which shows how intoxicated someone is. But there are pleanty of legal things that can not accuratly be tested for that way as well.


That and there's this stupid myth that since THC takes a long time to get out of your system you are still stoned after the high wears off. It's BS because the THC turns into inactive metabolites once they go from your cannabinoid receptors into your fatty tissue.


Actually that is not a myth, the high(being stoned) lasts for about 1-3 hours depending on the quality and amount smoked....but its still detectable not because the person is still stoned but because that is the way that particular drug works.



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20 Jul 2011, 1:36 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Koko23 wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
You can get arrested for failing the physical and mental tests even if you are under the legal limit. The legal limit was set based on the fact that most people's level impairment increases slowly between .00 and .07, between .08 and .10 it picks up noticeably, and the level of impairment typically shoots up rapidly after that. Driving under the influence of anything, including prescription meds, is illegal. Just like impairment from prescription meds ,the most reliable field test for driving while impaired for cannabis use will be the field sobriety test for now. Drivers impaired by cannabis use have been found in controlled, closed course experiments to keep their car in the lines better than someone who is drunk, but their reaction time is dangerously slow and their ability to think fast is for all practical purposes nonexistent.


Drivers under the influence of THC also compensate by slowing down.
...And?

Sweetleaf wrote:
Woodpecker wrote:
As THC is known to mess up a person's ability to drive a car or fly a plane any person who has it in their body should be banned from driving if

1. The THC level is at least four times the standard deviation for the concentration measurement

and

2. The THC level is at least three times the background level of THC which is measured for a person who does not smoke weed.

I am basing my view on maths, I think that to find a person guilty we must be able to show beyond all reasonable doubt that they are guilty.


You do realise there is no real way to determine how recently someone has smoked weed by drug testing.....it can be traced up to 30 days after you smoke. So that would not really work, its not like alcohol where you can do a breathalizer or piss test which shows how intoxicated someone is. But there are pleanty of legal things that can not accuratly be tested for that way as well.


That and there's this stupid myth that since THC takes a long time to get out of your system you are still stoned after the high wears off. It's BS because the THC turns into inactive metabolites once they go from your cannabinoid receptors into your fatty tissue.


Actually that is not a myth, the high(being stoned) lasts for about 1-3 hours depending on the quality and amount smoked....but its still detectable not because the person is still stoned but because that is the way that particular drug works.
I should've worded that better. I meant that there's the myth that even after that 1-3 hour duration it is still psychoactive. This is what some prohibitionist referred to as "low grade intoxication". But the thing is in order for a substance to be psychoactive it has to be interacting with the receptors in your brain. After THC is finished interacting with your cannabinoid receptors, it is converted to inactive metabolites which is then stored in your fatty tissue. Hence it is no longer psychoactive and the detectable THC is inactive.



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20 Jul 2011, 2:00 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Koko23 wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
You can get arrested for failing the physical and mental tests even if you are under the legal limit. The legal limit was set based on the fact that most people's level impairment increases slowly between .00 and .07, between .08 and .10 it picks up noticeably, and the level of impairment typically shoots up rapidly after that. Driving under the influence of anything, including prescription meds, is illegal. Just like impairment from prescription meds ,the most reliable field test for driving while impaired for cannabis use will be the field sobriety test for now. Drivers impaired by cannabis use have been found in controlled, closed course experiments to keep their car in the lines better than someone who is drunk, but their reaction time is dangerously slow and their ability to think fast is for all practical purposes nonexistent.


Drivers under the influence of THC also compensate by slowing down.
...And?

Sweetleaf wrote:
Woodpecker wrote:
As THC is known to mess up a person's ability to drive a car or fly a plane any person who has it in their body should be banned from driving if

1. The THC level is at least four times the standard deviation for the concentration measurement

and

2. The THC level is at least three times the background level of THC which is measured for a person who does not smoke weed.

I am basing my view on maths, I think that to find a person guilty we must be able to show beyond all reasonable doubt that they are guilty.


You do realise there is no real way to determine how recently someone has smoked weed by drug testing.....it can be traced up to 30 days after you smoke. So that would not really work, its not like alcohol where you can do a breathalizer or piss test which shows how intoxicated someone is. But there are pleanty of legal things that can not accuratly be tested for that way as well.


That and there's this stupid myth that since THC takes a long time to get out of your system you are still stoned after the high wears off. It's BS because the THC turns into inactive metabolites once they go from your cannabinoid receptors into your fatty tissue.


Actually that is not a myth, the high(being stoned) lasts for about 1-3 hours depending on the quality and amount smoked....but its still detectable not because the person is still stoned but because that is the way that particular drug works.
I should've worded that better. I meant that there's the myth that even after that 1-3 hour duration it is still psychoactive. This is what some prohibitionist referred to as "low grade intoxication". But the thing is in order for a substance to be psychoactive it has to be interacting with the receptors in your brain. After THC is finished interacting with your cannabinoid receptors, it is converted to inactive metabolites which is then stored in your fatty tissue. Hence it is no longer psychoactive and the detectable THC is inactive.


Ok that makes more sense.