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Master_Pedant
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29 Aug 2011, 1:19 am

Tristin Hopper wrote:
God isn’t dead in the Yukon, but he isn’t in peak condition.

The Yukon has Canada’s highest population of atheists and agnostics, making it the country’s most secular jurisdiction.

More than 11,000 Yukoners (37.4 per cent of the population) say they have “no religion,” according to Statistics Canada.

Canada-wide, the “no religion,” group only constitutes 16 per cent.

....

“In the Yukon, the missionary and church work shifted from First Nations to newcomers during and after the Gold Rush,” wrote Yukon historian Ken Coates in an e-mail to the News.

More than 100 years later, aboriginal communities have largely kept the faith.

But among non-aboriginals, church attendance has plummeted.

The Yukon’s lack of worship may simply be a lack of First Nations.

Only one quarter of the Yukon population is aboriginal.

The Northwest Territories, on the other hand, counts just over 50 per cent of its population as First Nations.

NWT’s “no religion” group is only 17 per cent.

At 85 per cent, Nunavut holds Canada’s highest percentage of First Nations.

They also hold the country’s lowest population of atheists and agnostics (only six per cent).



...

Over in Alaska, the situation is similar.

The ultra-religious neo-conservatism of former Alaska governor Sarah Palin may have painted the 49th state as a God-fearing Mecca, but the average Alaskan stopped thumping the Bible long ago.

Only 22 per cent of Alaskans regularly attend church services - one of the lowest in the United States, according to a study by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

A further 31 per cent of Alaskans consider religion “not too important.”

In comments to the Anchorage Daily News, Evangelical Lutheran Bishop Michael Keys attributed mass-secularization to the state’s fierce individualism.


http://www.yukon-news.com/life/14427/

The analogies with Alaska of all places are quite interesting (although, given Alaska borders the Yukon, perhaps it shouldn't be that surprising). I really find the high rates of religiosity among the First Nations in Canada quite sad, as (quite like former African slaves in the USA) it was a religion rammed down their throats in a brutalizing way and it seems to have stuck.


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Knifey
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29 Aug 2011, 1:34 am

37% seems kind of low. I had no idea Canada was so religious. Also why is it a shame, how is it negatively affecting their lives? I would say it's a shame you're an atheist because it makes you a condescending narcissist. or am i getting the cause and effect back to front?


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Master_Pedant
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29 Aug 2011, 1:47 am

Knifey wrote:
37% seems kind of low. I had no idea Canada was so religious. Also why is it a shame, how is it negatively affecting their lives? I would say it's a shame you're an atheist because it makes you a condescending narcissist. or am i getting the cause and effect back to front?


It's ashame because it shows that "gunpoint ministries" work and that "rice Christians" remain permanent over the ages.

By the way, I'd like to say that you display the vicious hypocrisy of supposed "good (i.e. Fundie) Christians". Whine and whine about "atheists converting people" and then insinuate narcissism. Its funny that in your other thread you speak of how people generalizing on the basis of bad religious experiences are "a lot like racists" yet you yourself made that whole thread on the basis of generalizations on atheists.

The Christian emperor truly has no clothes.


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Knifey
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29 Aug 2011, 2:19 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
It's ashame because it shows that "gunpoint ministries" work and that "rice Christians" remain permanent over the ages.
and why is that bad (i really don't know because i don't know what "gunpoint ministries" and "rice Christians" are)

Master_Pedant wrote:
By the way, I'd like to say that you display the vicious hypocrisy of supposed "good (i.e. Fundie) Christians". Whine and whine about "atheists converting people" and then insinuate narcissism. Its funny that in your other thread you speak of how people generalizing on the basis of bad religious experiences are "a lot like racists" yet you yourself made that whole thread on the basis of generalizations on atheists.
Haha, I don't have a problem with atheists, I have a problem with you and how insulting and condescending you were in your first post. You can pretend I hate atheists, but my reply wasn't to atheists, it was to you. You talk about religion like a racist talking about black refugee's (like they are a blight on the nation and we'd be better off without them)


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Booyakasha
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29 Aug 2011, 3:08 am

Could we please desist from personal attacks?

Attack the statement/opinion/belief not the person.



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29 Aug 2011, 3:14 am

Booyakasha wrote:
Could we please desist from personal attacks?

Attack the statement/opinion/belief not the person.
exactly, attack the belief and not the group of people that believe it. it's not okay to be insulting towards a group of people just because of their belief, which you were in your initial post Master_Pedant.

Master_Pedant wrote:
Its funny that in your other thread you speak of how people generalizing on the basis of bad religious experiences are "a lot like racists" yet you yourself made that whole thread on the basis of generalizations on atheists.
I didn't say all atheists were zealots, my thread was about atheists who are zealots. Maybe you should put some more thought into it before you make wild accusations. I have had many conversations with atheists who weren't zealots whom I respected very much.


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Booyakasha
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29 Aug 2011, 3:54 am

You called Master Pedant " a condescending narcissist" and that was clearly a personal attack.

Knifey wrote:
I would say it's a shame you're an atheist because it makes you a condescending narcissist.


You might have said instead, "I consider your statement condescending/narcissistic/whatever".

Not sure how to take your claim - as causal: "you're an atheist and that makes you a condescending narcisit" which can be seen as condescending to the other atheists as well?

Let me reiterate - there is a personal attack whose only goal is to demean the other people, and there is ad hominem fallacy which means attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. Both are forbidden by the rules of conduct.

The fact is that genocide has been made against the population of Native Americans, and Christian faith WAS forced on them, usually by forced conversion.



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29 Aug 2011, 4:29 am

Booyakasha wrote:
The fact is that genocide has been made against the population of Native Americans, and Christian faith WAS forced on them, usually by forced conversion.
And they are too stupid to make up their own minds about it now they are not under duress? Claims like that are extremely insulting.

If somebody said I was an atheist because my father was an atheist I would be extremely insulted. I have a brain and I can make my own opinions.


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Booyakasha
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29 Aug 2011, 4:59 am

They are equally "stupid" as all the people across the globe who follow the religion of their parents.

Anyhow, I'd have more respect if I were you for the native Americans and everything they've been out through just because they weren't white enough:

Quote:
The War of 1812 marked a turning point from the policy of Native-American assimilation and partial retention of native land to the policy of outright removal of native tribes to the West of the Mississippi. The forced removal or tribes also resulted in a total relinquishment of traditional native land. After many largely unsuccessful attempts to convince the five relatively prosperous and assimilated tribes of the Southeast (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Seminole, and Creek) to voluntarily move westward, the federal government acquiesced to state pressure and passed the Indian Removal Act of 1830. It offered a trade of land in the East for land in the West. The particularly coercive aspect of the act was that those who refused the exchange would no longer be protected under federal law and would be subject to hostile state regulation. The removal policies of the federal government resulted in the humanitarian disaster referred to by the Cherokee as the Trail of Tears.

Approximately four thousand Cherokee perished on this forced walk to western lands. Removal, however, was a larger policy than this one famed act. It occurred both before and after 1830 and represented the belief that American Indians were not capable of existing with nor desired to coexist with white settlers. There were conflicting motivations behind the policy. For some, it was a thinly veiled method of evicting Native Americans from land that was desired by white settlers. For others, it was based on the belief that Native Americans were members of an inferior civilization that could not survive in the civilized world and therefore needed to be removed for their own sake. Either way, some scholars reference the federal removal policy as a genocidal act due to the death and proprietary loss incurred to Native Americans as well as the destruction of their traditional way of life.

A second and particularly destructive policy was that of assimilation. Behind assimilation policies lies the desire to remove all that is "Indian" from the Native Americans. A particularly poignant historical example of how this policy was also tied to the continued desire for more land is the General Allotment Act of 1887 (the Dawes Act). This act terminated communal land holdings on the reservations and redistributed land to individual Native Americans by a trust system. After twenty-five years, they would own the land individually and become U.S. citizens. Any "surplus" land would be taken for sale to settlers. It was an attempt to assimilate Native-American traditions of communal land holdings to the Euro-American system of private ownership. Thereby, it was thought, Native Americans would join mainstream society and, at the same time, require less land. This act had disastrous effects on traditional Native-American life and reduced their land holdings by two-thirds.

Yet another assimilation policy was the forced removal of Native-American children from their parental homes to boarding schools for "civilized" education. The Northwest Ordinance of 1787 established an involuntary boarding-school system where children were typically forbidden to speak their native language and were stripped of all outward native characteristics. The Carlisle Indian Industrial School was one of these schools and incorporated an "outing system" whereby children were placed with white families in order to learn American customs and values. While having the good intention to provide education to Native-American children, this system of indoctrination was also aimed at "killing the Indian and saving the man" (Glauner, 2002, p. 10) as Richard Pratt of the Carlisle School said. In the twenty-first century, this policy would be considered both a potential violation of the UN Genocide Convention's prohibition on transferring children from one group to another, and a blatant intention to cleanse the Indian population of their native language and cultural values through the re-education of their children.

A clearer example of a federal genocidal act against Native Americans was the involuntary sterilization of approximately seventy thousand Native-American women. The federally funded Indian Health Services carried out these sterilizations between 1930 and the mid-1970s. They were often done without informed consent, covertly, or under a fraudulent diagnosis of medical necessity. This directly contravenes the UN Genocide Convention. Destroying a group's ability to reproduce is an obvious and crude method of ensuring the inability of the group's survival.

Whether government actions such as the Trail of Tears and assimilation policies qualify as genocidal acts or as crimes against humanity continues to be a subject of much disagreement and debate. The UN Genocide Convention requires that a state actor have "intent to destroy" a group to satisfy the definition of genocide. As previously outlined, many of the actions taken by the federal, state, and colonial governments fell short of actual intent to destroy the Native Americans. Scholars Frank Chalk and Kurt Jonassohn maintain that the closest cases are the massacres at Sand Creek and of the Yuki of Round Valley (a modern example would be the sterilization programs). In both instances, government officials played key roles in facilitating the purposeful killing of Native Americans. The circumstances under which the United States committed genocide against Native Americans tended to be when other methods failed to clear a path to settlement, or other notions of progress. "Ethnocide was the principal United States policy toward American Indians in the nineteenth century . . . the federal government stood ready to engage in genocide as a means of coercing tribes when they resisted ethnocide or resorted to armed resistance" (Chalk and Jonassohn, 1990, p. 203).


Genocide and Crimes against humanity

Not to mention that late Pope John Paul II apologised for the forced conversion of the native tribes in both Americas in his public apology in 2000; and so did the US government that very year:

Quote:
On September 8, 2000, the head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) formally apologized for the agency's participation in the "ethnic cleansing" of Western tribes. From the forced relocation and assimilation of the "sauvage" to the white man's way of life to the forced sterilization of Native Americans, the BIA set out to "destroy all things Indian." Through the exploration of the United States' Federal Indian policy, it is evident that this policy intended to "destroy, in whole or in part," the Native American population. The extreme disparity in the number of Native American people living within the United States' borders at the time Columbus arrived, approximately ten million compared to the approximate 2.4 million Indians and Eskimos alive in the United States today, is but one factor that illustrates the success of the government's plan of "Manifest Destiny."

No longer can we remain indifferent and justify these acts of genocide committed by the United States government, its agencies, and its personnel against Native Americans as a result of colonization or the need to establish a prosperous union. Instead, the United States government, its agencies, and those involved with carrying out the measures designed to inflict genocidal acts against the Native American population must be held in violation of customary international law, as well as conventional international law, as proscribed in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (Genocide Convention).


The US and the Crime of Genocide Against native Americans



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29 Aug 2011, 5:05 am

Booyakasha wrote:
They are equally "stupid" as all the people across the globe who follow the religion of their parents.
If you follow a religion because somebody else does. Then you don't understand the religion and you don't really follow it. So in my eyes there is no such thing as somebody who "believes" in a religion because their parents do, only those who say they believe but don't really. If they actually believe then their parents had as much to do with their belief as google maps has to do with me getting laid because they showed me the way to the brothel.


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John_Browning
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29 Aug 2011, 5:46 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
The analogies with Alaska of all places are quite interesting (although, given Alaska borders the Yukon, perhaps it shouldn't be that surprising). I really find the high rates of religiosity among the First Nations in Canada quite sad, as (quite like former African slaves in the USA) it was a religion rammed down their throats in a brutalizing way and it seems to have stuck.

Their conversion may have been brutal just like it was in many other places, but Christianity and a lot of American Indian beliefs have enough parallels that conversion CAN be a smooth transition. I once saw an American Indian church that was even able to weave traditional ceremonies into their worship that it didn't conflict with the Bible.

Knifey wrote:
I would say it's a shame you're an atheist because it makes you a condescending narcissist. or am i getting the cause and effect back to front?

What came first? The chicken or the egg? :P

Okay, I could be serious about that but that would end up way outside the forum rules. If you are a conservative you tend to get held to stricter rules around here. All I can say is watch the PPR forum for a while and you will have all your answers.


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29 Aug 2011, 6:58 am

Knifey wrote:
Booyakasha wrote:
They are equally "stupid" as all the people across the globe who follow the religion of their parents.
If you follow a religion because somebody else does. Then you don't understand the religion and you don't really follow it. So in my eyes there is no such thing as somebody who "believes" in a religion because their parents do, only those who say they believe but don't really. If they actually believe then their parents had as much to do with their belief as google maps has to do with me getting laid because they showed me the way to the brothel.


In many cases it's nothing but a cultural thing, which I agree with you is pretty lame. Then again nobody wants to be an outcast, so in such small communities, religion can be a cohesive to keep the community from completely falling apart. (They have the highest rate of alcoholism and suicide in whole US so while I'm not advocating their adherence to Christianity or any other religion I can understand it.) However it would have been better for their own personal sense of self awareness/belonging to the community that they kept their original tribal practices more intact. Yet with such aggressive US policy of assimilation, I'm not surprised that they succumbed.



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29 Aug 2011, 11:00 am

For anyone interested a documentary on the state of Native Americans now:

http://vimeo.com/21074930

(Documentary is in English with Romanian subtitles)

And a book: A little matter of genocide



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29 Aug 2011, 10:23 pm

Knifey wrote:
why is that bad (i really don't know because i don't know what "gunpoint ministries" and "rice Christians" are)


"Gunpoint ministries", I think, is a pretty obvious neologism - mainly, ministries that convert people at the end of a gun (or sword or navel blockade). "Rice Christians" refers to the phenomena of impoverished individuals in China "converting" to Christianity in order to gain food (rice) that wasn't in great supply after the (Western induced, Christian missionary supported) Opium Wars.

And its bad for many reasons. For one, it proves that human morale can be effectively crushed and that persuasion via force does work. In the United States, a developed country with absurdly low levels of state funded social welfare, the Church has taken many important functions in African American communities. If you're an impoverished African American, openly rejecting religious indoctrination can lead to ostracism and the loss of essential supports. Furthermore, despite some work by the Rev. Al Sharpton to curtail this, there still is rampanant homophobia and social conservatism on non-death penalty related matters in the more "evangelical" Black Church, Native American Churches in the USA are also ravingly fundamentalist. In Canada, given that all denominations are a little more mainline than in the US, the situation isn't is bad - still, many socially conservative "ethnic" Churches instil social doctrines that are counterproductive to the moral progress and broad progressive coalitions for change.


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Master_Pedant
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29 Aug 2011, 10:32 pm

Booyakasha wrote:
For anyone interested a documentary on the state of Native Americans now:

http://vimeo.com/21074930

(Documentary is in English with Romanian subtitles)

And a book: A little matter of genocide


First part of a dramatic film based on Residential Schools.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZkJhWTfuPw[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXO68LCB8kU&feature=related[/youtube]


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Knifey
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29 Aug 2011, 11:03 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
"Rice Christians" refers to the phenomena of impoverished individuals in China "converting" to Christianity in order to gain food (rice) that wasn't in great supply after the (Western induced, Christian missionary supported) Opium Wars.
So because Christians are making sure their fellow christians have enough to eat, and other people are pretending to be christian to get free food its the fault of the christians providing the food? Why don't they go get rice from the buddhist charities instead? oh yeah i forgot buddhists beleive that starving to death is punishment for a previous life and they deserve to die. Hmm, I don't know why people would be changing religion at all :roll:


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